If You Could Really Know The Truth . . .

[FOOSE1 0]

I'm trying to get away from the same old circular discussion . . . GOD exists . . . No he doesn't . . . Prove he doesn't . . . Prove he does . . . blah blah blah. So I thought this would get us thinking a little differently without the same arguments.The question is: If you could REALLY know the truth, if GOD does or doesn't exist, would you want to know? Think a little before responding. Christians, atheists, agnostics . . . whatever . . . think about what it would mean if you were right OR if you were wrong. Be open minded to both sides as to how it would or wouldn't change you life if you wanted to know.Discuss.

[JadeTiger 0]

I'm trying to get away from the same old circular discussion . . . GOD exists . . . No he doesn't . . . Prove he doesn't . . . Prove he does . . . blah blah blah. So I thought this would get us thinking a little differently without the same arguments.The question is: If you could REALLY know the truth, if GOD does or doesn't exist, would you want to know? Think a little before responding. Christians, atheists, agnostics . . . whatever . . . think about what it would mean if you were right OR if you were wrong. Be open minded to both sides as to how it would or wouldn't change you life if you wanted to know.Discuss.

There is no way this is not going to create the same old discussions. The atheists and those that believe in a higher power both 'already know the answer'. It just happens that one of them is wrong. How do you expect this to not be circular? Unless the FCPers who are agnostic want to answer. Otherwise we will run into the same old discussion.

[FOOSE1 0]

Your probably right. I guess I'm just trying to give the "regulars" in this forum enough credit that they can be objective and mature enough to actually consider the "other sides" opinion. Maybe I'm wrong in hoping that.

[JadeTiger 0]

Your probably right. I guess I'm just trying to give the "regulars" in this forum enough credit that they can be objective and mature enough to actually consider the "other sides" opinion. Maybe I'm wrong in hoping that.

Nah...you arent wrong. But the nature of the question means that someone would have to admit to being agnostic. If we dont truly believe we are right, whatever our stance on the issue, then why have we been debating? If the truly agnostic FCPers want to comment i think they could provide some interesting feedback. But as for the 'atheists' and 'believers in a higher power', they PROBABLY will not be able to respond to this type of question without admitting that they arent really sure.

[FOOSE1 0]

Nah...you arent wrong. But the nature of the question means that someone would have to admit to being agnostic. If we dont truly believe we are right, whatever our stance on the issue, then why have we been debating? If the truly agnostic FCPers want to comment i think they could provide some interesting feedback. But as for the 'atheists' and 'believers in a higher power', they PROBABLY will not be able to respond to this type of question without admitting that they arent really sure.

ding ding ding ding . . . we have a winner . . .

[speedz99 145]

It depends...would knowing there is a God come with the knowledge of what He/She/It expects of us? If not, then what's the point?Personally, I think that if there is a God there is a 50/50 chance he made the Universe and then took a step back...and doesn't give a shit what we do...in which case it doesn't really matter if he exists at all.

[FOOSE1 0]

It depends...would knowing there is a God come with the knowledge of what He/She/It expects of us? If not, then what's the point?Personally, I think that if there is a God there is a 50/50 chance he made the Universe and then took a step back...and doesn't give a shit what we do...in which case it doesn't really matter if he exists at all.

You are right . . . what would be the point if you didn't know what is expected? If nothing would be expected . . . then there is no point. Of course if you found out there is no GOD then nothing would be expected, right?

[JadeTiger 0]

It depends...would knowing there is a God come with the knowledge of what He/She/It expects of us? If not, then what's the point?Personally, I think that if there is a God there is a 50/50 chance he made the Universe and then took a step back...and doesn't give a shit what we do...in which case it doesn't really matter if he exists at all.

Is that something you just pulled out of the air or do you have reason to believe so? That seems like something you picked up in a philosophy class somewhere. God as the Clock-maker who created 'the clock' and just sits back and lets it work. It seems that you have some deeper issue with God, if he does exist, that would make you say that.

[Canada 0]

I'm trying to get away from the same old circular discussion . . . GOD exists . . . No he doesn't . . . Prove he doesn't . . . Prove he does . . . blah blah blah. So I thought this would get us thinking a little differently without the same arguments.The question is: If you could REALLY know the truth, if GOD does or doesn't exist, would you want to know? Think a little before responding. Christians, atheists, agnostics . . . whatever . . . think about what it would mean if you were right OR if you were wrong. Be open minded to both sides as to how it would or wouldn't change you life if you wanted to know.Discuss.

I think most would. Obviously for any camp to KNOW they are correct would be acceptable and doesn't warrant much discussion.I think an athiest or agnostic would be happy to know that a God ( and the 'a' there extends your question to correctly allow us to remove preconceived views) as it obviously allows them to 'get to know' said deity and ensure the rewards of doing so.As an athiest I would quite happily eat humble pie to be invited to the party.A theist knowing that their God is not actually real, but another God is, would like to make the 'transition' for the same reasons. There would be no change of mindset once accepting 'the truth', at the simplest of levels a name change.I think the hardest category would be a theist learning that there is no God at all, as to know this is giving up a lot of comfort and to worship a deity in a Godless universe does no harm. <Insert Crow's big picture response to 'no harm' here> I would assume that this is the scenario/group combination that would result in the highest number of 'keep me in the dark' responses

[JadeTiger 0]

I think most would. Obviously for any camp to KNOW they are correct would be acceptable and doesn't warrant much discussion.I think an athiest or agnostic would be happy to know that a God ( and the 'a' there extends your question to correctly allow us to remove preconceived views) as it obviously allows them to 'get to know' said deity and ensure the rewards of doing so.As an athiest I would quite happily eat humble pie to be invited to the party.A theist knowing that their God is not actually real, but another God is, would like to make the 'transition' for the same reasons. There would be no change of mindset once accepting 'the truth', at the simplest of levels a name change.I think the hardest category would be a theist learning that there is no God at all, as to know this is giving up a lot of comfort and to worship a deity in a Godless universe does no harm. <Insert Crow's big picture response to 'no harm' here> I would assume that this is the scenario/group combination that would result in the highest number of 'keep me in the dark' responses

Maybe the initial shock of realizing that their is no God would be crushing emotionally, but I think the long term effects of someone, previously atheistic, realizing that they had rejected God would cause so much intellectual and rational trauma, they would have a far more difficult time dealing with the realization. The theist will simply revert to believing what is visible and provable scientifically, something that is much easier to do. It is more difficult, I feel, for a analytical atheist to garner faith than it is for a theist to garner scientific process.

[Mercury69 3]

One man's truth is another man's lie.

[Canada 0]

I think the long term effects of someone, previously atheistic, realizing that they had rejected God would cause so much intellectual and rational trauma.

Why? If we use the Christian God as an example, the (now no longer) athiest's point of view is "I was wrong, but I have been forgiven so all is well". It would be the same as anybody 'discovering' God.All 'born-agains' describe it as a joyous process.

[FOOSE1 0]

One man's truth is another man's lie.

Wow . . . you really put a lot of thought into that . . . thanks.(Yes this is sarcasm . . . in case you were wondering ).

[JadeTiger 0]

Why? If we use the Christian God as an example, the (now no longer) athiest's point of view is "I was wrong, but I have been forgiven so all is well". It would be the same as anybody 'discovering' God.All 'born-agains' describe it as a joyous process.

I assure you that there is nothing joyous about realizing that their is a Holy God, one of whom created you and desires you to live a Holy life; once your sin is revealed and you have realized your own filth and rebellion against that God. The pain and anguish that comes from that is initially almost overwhelming for the true convert. This frilly 'God is love' and just believe and you will be saved 'watered-down' Christianity is not what a true relationship with God is about. I do not claim perfection or that I have it all figured out but my experience of conversion was one of deep regret of my former life and the things I did to 'spit' in the face of God. God is forgiving and merciful and I wouldnt trade it. But it is not a joyous process by any means. if anything, it should be a process of pain and anguish, stripping yourself of all your sin and your former life. Everything you are is changed and 'reborn'. It is much harder to be a Christian and love/serve God in all that you do, than to just live how I want with no consequence. Ill be honest, Id be living a much easier life if I wasnt a christian. But I cant deny who God is...I digress...coming from someone who once lived his life without belief and now in belief I have seen both sides. Im not sure about your situation but it sounds like you have lived a short time if any on the christian side. you may have a creme puffed view of christianity that is inaccurate because of televangelists and milk-toast christians you have encountered.

[FOOSE1 0]

Yeah . . . I think atheists would probably have a harder time just from the self-examination standpoint. It would force them to look at the way they have been living (without a GOD) and would probably fill them with tons of regret. I do think Christians would have a difficult time as well because then it would take the "purpose" out of their lives.So . . . yeah . . . both sides (so to speak) would have issues, but I think atheists would have a harder time adjusting their life.

[JadeTiger 0]

Yeah . . . I think atheists would probably have a harder time just from the self-examination standpoint. It would force them to look at the way they have been living (without a GOD) and would probably fill them with tons of regret. I do think Christians would have a difficult time as well because then it would then take the "purpose" out of their lives.So . . . yeah . . . both sides (so to speak) would have issues.

Christians could just start living for themselves like they did when they were 'lost' so to speak.titty bars every night, drinking every night, pretty much whatever.

[FOOSE1 0]

Christians could just start living for themselves like they did when they were 'lost' so to speak.titty bars every night, drinking every night, pretty much whatever.

Your right . . . some probably would. I don't know that I would honestly. Of course I'm married so the whole nudy bar scene doesn't tempt me, but like you I wasn't always a Christian. So, I have seen both sides as well . . . I prefer this side (as opposed to the "dark side" - lol).

[JadeTiger 0]

Your right . . . some probably would. I don't know that I would honestly. Of course I'm married so the whole nudy bar scene doesn't tempt me, but like you I wasn't always a Christian. So, I have seen both sides as well . . . I prefer this side (as opposed to the "dark side" - lol).

I used the titty bar as an example. It would just lower most people's moral standards and they would do things without 'eternal' or 'spiritual' standards or consequence.

[speedz99 145]

Is that something you just pulled out of the air or do you have reason to believe so? That seems like something you picked up in a philosophy class somewhere. God as the Clock-maker who created 'the clock' and just sits back and lets it work. It seems that you have some deeper issue with God, if he does exist, that would make you say that.

That's my own personal belief...not pulled from anywhere but my head. My coming to that conclusion has been influenced by many things, not just one religion, philosophy, science etc. In my opinion it's the most logical explanation.It's funny you assume I have some deeper issue with God. Shows once again that you automatically think anyone that disagrees with you does so for a specific reason (not just because they think for themselves).

[FOOSE1 0]

I used the titty bar as an example. It would just lower most people's moral standards and they would do things without 'eternal' or 'spiritual' standards or consequence.

true . . . I agree

[speedz99 145]

You are right . . . what would be the point if you didn't know what is expected? If nothing would be expected . . . then there is no point. Of course if you found out there is no GOD then nothing would be expected, right?

I honestly don't think anything is expected of me now. Why don't I go out and rape, pillage, plunder, etc?I live my life by a few things that (unfortunately) most people don't fully understand. Empathy and respect. Obviously I'm not perfect, but by trying to put myself in the other guy's shoes as much as possible, I lead a life that's just as moral as the life of 99% of religious people.

[Canada 0]

I assure you that there is nothing joyous about realizing that their is a Holy God, one of whom created you and desires you to live a Holy life; once your sin is revealed and you have realized your own filth and rebellion against that God. The pain and anguish that comes from that is initially almost overwhelming for the true convert. This frilly 'God is love' and just believe and you will be saved 'watered-down' Christianity is not what a true relationship with God is about. I do not claim perfection or that I have it all figured out but my experience of conversion was one of deep regret of my former life and the things I did to 'spit' in the face of God. God is forgiving and merciful and I wouldnt trade it. But it is not a joyous process by any means. if anything, it should be a process of pain and anguish, stripping yourself of all your sin and your former life. Everything you are is changed and 'reborn'. It is much harder to be a Christian and love/serve God in all that you do, than to just live how I want with no consequence. Ill be honest, Id be living a much easier life if I wasnt a christian. But I cant deny who God is...I digress...coming from someone who once lived his life without belief and now in belief I have seen both sides. Im not sure about your situation but it sounds like you have lived a short time if any on the christian side. you may have a creme puffed view of christianity that is inaccurate because of televangelists and milk-toast christians you have encountered.

Nice post. Seriously.Personally I was raised a Christian and never went through the retrospective process. I always believed and had no former life to regret.I did go through a whole emotional upheaval when I became an athiest after discovering that I had been deceived and was living a lie (my belief of course not a statement of fact - keeping it civil you know)However I won't go into that as getting into a 'My pain was worse than your pain' debate is pointless and disrespects us both. I'll just state that transitions of this type are tough, regardless of direction.So you've shown me that my initial thoughts were oversimplified. Nice work

So . . . yeah . . . both sides (so to speak) would have issues, but I think atheists would have a harder time adjusting their life.

Hee hee. So, it's not a "we are right, you are wrong argument", it's a "it would be easy for us but really hard for you argument."Same teams different words

[JadeTiger 0]

Nice post. Seriously.Personally I was raised a Christian and never went through the retrospective process. I always believed and had no former life to regret.I did go through a whole emotional upheaval when I became an athiest after discovering that I had been deceived and was living a lie (my belief of course not a statement of fact - keeping it civil you know)However I won't go into that as getting into a 'My pain was worse than your pain' debate is pointless and disrespects us both. I'll just state that transitions of this type are tough, regardless of direction.So you've shown me that my initial thoughts were oversimplified. Nice work

Likewise, I respect your position and think that we can agree that any realization that alters our entire way of living would be difficult.

[FOOSE1 0]

Hee hee. So, it's not a "we are right, you are wrong argument", it's a "it would be easy for us but really hard for you argument."Same teams different words

LOL . . . actually I think both "sides" would have a hard time . . . I just think atheists would have a harder time adjusting.As a christian thinking about this . . . I think it would be really hard on me personally if I found out therre was no GOD. It would change the way I think and react to all kinds of circumstances. So yeah, from a Christian standpoint it would be a blow.

Likewise, I respect your position and think that we can agree that any realization that alters our entire way of living would be difficult.

ditto

[Canada 0]

As a christian thinking about this . . . I think it would be really hard on me personally if I found out therre was no GOD. It would change the way I think and react to all kinds of circumstances. So yeah, from a Christian standpoint it would be a blow.

It would be interesting to see how many would continue on as before. How many theists would still go to church and how many athiests/agnostics would still argue in religion forums