Thinking About The Blinds

[econ_tim 0]

3/6 six handedI have K 2 in the SB.Folded to me, I open, BB calls.Flop is 2 8 7 I bet, BB raises, I 3-bet, BB calls.Turn is 8 I . . .Brand new PT database and BB is unknown.I know some people never fold in blind battles when they have any piece of the board as a rule. I don't believe that is optimal, but I also don't think much expectation is gained by folding showdownable hands in these situations.Here my hand is pretty bad, but if villain is raising overs, etc on this flop he is definitely calling the 3-bet, and maybe calling down w/A-high. On the other hand, such a player would 3-bet many of these hands preflop. Against a passive villain there is little I beat, and I don't think I'll fold any better hands. And if the BB is tricky, he will raise these flops with air often since I'm unlikely to have improved.

[PoppinFresh 0]

I don't like this, if villain doesn't have a pair he is almost certainly folding the turn after the flop is 3-bet, maybe calling down with A high but I don't see many players doing that and A high has to be discounted since he didn't 3-bet pf. On the ohter hand, if you just call the flop he is almost certainly betting the turn with airI would just calldown UI after the flop raise

[pokerplayer24 0]

No reason to 3-bet. Just let him spew if he has nothing. No reason to fold a weaker 2 or air.

[aim786 0]

Tim (and to everyone else):I'm probably being too careful in my blind play, because I've really stopped opening hands like K-little suited and many other hands from the SB. This has in turn lead to an increase in my overall profits, although over a small sample size.I'm not arguing that you should fold these hands, in fact I think for players past a certain skill level open raising hands like that is definitely +EV (put another way, your still losing money in the SB, but not as much). I'll open with alot of hands OTB, but in the SB I really tighten up. For me, and I suspect for other players as well, this is more +EV than say playing the way you play.Obviously, to be good at 6 max, you gotta play well in these blind situations. However, for many (myself included), I believe this starts off as a (huge?) leak. In terms of difficulty though, I think stealing from the SB is probably the most difficult situation. I think (and this is my own opinion, which may very well be flawed) that in order to master the blinds, one should work from the easiest situations to the ones requiring more skill:1) Attacking the blinds from the CO/Button:If you are not comfortable in this situation, you should really not be open raising out of the SB w/o a solid hand.2) Defending your BB after the SB opens:A well respected poster once told me at a strat table that I should call everything in the BB in this situation. I can see his logic for doing so, but I think this advice must be taken with a grain of salt. One should slowly start expanding their range in this situation, ie don't start playing every single hand untill you start getting comfortable with your ranges; then you can expand.3) Defending the BB from a Button raise:This is the first situation where I think things really start to get tricky. I believe one should really study and understand why one play is better than the other. (I'm probably still in this camp)4) Stealing from the SBLike I said, I think this is the trickiest situations of them all. Unless you are comfortable with the other situations, raising very marginal hands here is going to be even more -EV then folding right off the bat.Of course, there are many other blind situations, but I think these are the general ones that we run into a lot at the beginning. If your not careful, your going to start dropping a lot of money in the blinds, and its probably not variance.Being a good player in blind situations will definitely take your game to a whole new level, but it must be done slowly. Don't just jump head first into these situations w/o really learning about it first. It is true that you won't learn until you experience the situation, and everyone pays a "tuition" when moving up a level or learning new things. But I strongly believe that by going slowly, your going to do a lot better for your game in the long run than rushing things.Going back to the OP, calling down is definitely sub optimal. However, I don't think it is that far off from correct strategy. (I am somewhat biased in saying that because I have'nt folded alot of hands in those situations, and it works for me. But I'm pretty sure that folding in certain situations is better than what I do).I'm not going off on Tim right now, and I hope he does'nt think that. I respect his game, and I think him among others (Poppin, screech, pp24, abba, cobalt, AO, and some others) know what they are doing way more than me. For them this is OK, but I also think for a lot of others this going to lead them in the wrong direction. Eventually, we can start making these moves, but right now I still think its best to move slowly.Again, I did'nt mean to offend anybody, so I'll see if I get heat for this or not 2morrow!-------As for the hand, I bet/call the flop, and then call down.

[CobaltBlue 662]

aim, I tend to agree with you that opening from the SB is a tricky situation, because a lot of BBs will defend with any two. When you're considering opening from the SB, I think the biggest consideration that you need to make is the kind of player in the BB.If he's likely to fold pre-flop or on the flop frequently, you've got to go for it with a wide variety of hands. I'm not suggesting raising every hand, but I'd say I'm likely to raise everything all the way down to something like T8o.If he's a strong, aggressive player who rarely folds pre-flop or on the flop in this situation, you need to be a lot more selective. I'm much more apt to throw my marginal hand away or possibly complete (unless he's raising a huge portion of the time after a complete) in such a scenario.If he's a weak, passive player, I'll usually continue opening with my showdownable hands (pairs and two big cards), but I'll complete with a lot of hands and hope to outplay him post-flop.Let me also say that I dislike K-little and Q-little hands. I'll play them when the situation calls for it...but I'm usually not happy about it.

[econ_tim 0]

some good repliesfirst, i agree that K2s isn't a must steal handif i don't have a read on the BB, i like to test him by stealing with marginal hands . . . if he plays back, then i narrow my stealing range.i thought about the hand some more last night, and i don't really like the 3-bet unless i have a specific read that BB bluff raises flops a lot in these situations but will fold the turn if i resist. a safe play against straigtforward players is to bet/call the flop and check/fold the turn UI. again, maybe this is folding too many pairs in the blind. against more creative players, we can just call down from the flop raise.

[MasterLJ 0]

3/6 six handedI have K 2 in the SB.Folded to me, I open, BB calls.Flop is 2 8 7 I bet, BB raises, I 3-bet, BB calls.Turn is 8 I . . .Brand new PT database and BB is unknown.I know some people never fold in blind battles when they have any piece of the board as a rule. I don't believe that is optimal, but I also don't think much expectation is gained by folding showdownable hands in these situations.Here my hand is pretty bad, but if villain is raising overs, etc on this flop he is definitely calling the 3-bet, and maybe calling down w/A-high. On the other hand, such a player would 3-bet many of these hands preflop. Against a passive villain there is little I beat, and I don't think I'll fold any better hands. And if the BB is tricky, he will raise these flops with air often since I'm unlikely to have improved.

I make a killing 3-betting low pair when I play HU LHE. It's a little different situation but you're good more often than not, plus you could very well have one of your opponent's outs (the King) making them drawing to a 3 outer. Against an unknown I check/call check/call. If you have observed any passive behavior at all you should lead the turn. In fact, I might just lead/fold against a tight player, lead/call against aggressive-maniac. But since you said this is an unknown I think check/call is the best line.