thecamelot 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 MP1 is roughly 7/0/0 over 27 hands... Small sample size, but... Is this way ahead way behind or, just way behind?Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is UTG+1 with [Qd], [Qs]. 1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 4 folds, Hero caps, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.Flop: (13.50 SB) [6c], [3c], [As] (3 players)Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls.Turn: (7.75 BB) [3s] (2 players)Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds.Final Pot: 8.75 BB Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 why are you calling the flop and folding turn UI?stop that.bet/fold flop.or c/c all streets.this guy, I probably do the first one. Link to post Share on other sites
Pancake407 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 I think you have to call this down against an unknown. Link to post Share on other sites
thecamelot 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 why are you calling the flop and folding turn UI?stop that.bet/fold flop.I do it a lot... It's very weak, I know not to do it when I'm reviewing a hand after, but in the moment I make this mistake often.If I take the bet/fold approach, what do I do if he calls the flop? Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 If I take the bet/fold approach, what do I do if he calls the flop?bet/fold turn.c/c riverPancake makes good suggestion.In real life against 27 hands I would have trouble laying this down.We are getting 3.6 : 1 effective to call downWhen we check he probably bets TT-AA, AK,AQ. Once he also bets the trun and river though, TT-JJ much less likely. So our true effective odds are 3.2 : 1. Does he 3-bet preflop and bet the flop with an Ace on board after we cap preflop and check flop into 2 players? I'm still leaning to bet/fold flop.We can c/r fold flop for even better info.But that could committ us to seeing the turn if both players call.Costing 2 SB's more than B/F. This player gives indication to that he may not 3-bet an Ace on the flop, but just call us down. Link to post Share on other sites
thecamelot 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 In real life, I have trouble laying it down too, but I did. I always feel like such a sucker when I check call the whole way with the 2nd best hand.Being new to the table, is calling down a decent option just to see what he'd 3-bet with? (And bet flop & turn).I'm still learning to bet/fold, period. Not just on the flop. In fact, I need some more understanding of why we bet/fold.But, thinking about it, the flop check was horribly weak. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 you bet/fold, or even c/r fold sometimes, against this guy to save your self the $$$ from calling down with 2 outs. When opponet 3-bet preflop and raises a flop lead, or especially 3-bets a c/r on flop, after you showed all that preflop aggression, you can "comfortably" laydown your underpair.Vs lags or strong players, I can see c/c down also.With little read, it can't be a big error in this hige pot to call down.Sometimes the preflop action does not define your hands as clearly and you may want to c/r first; but here, you capped preflop.***********kinda related*************last night, I have A2s in sb. 6 MaxUTG raisee, I'm only caller. My 2nd hand, maybe loose call.Ace on flopI c/c all streets.He has KK. MHIG.Some say I need to b/f river to get value from TT-KK that won't bet it.Against unknown at 2/4 6 Max, I figured the odds of him betting an underpair were about as good as him calling a bet w/o the risk of a raise and I fold best hand sometimes. Also, my point here, is I never defined my hand for him, so he is more likely to continue betting with KK.Of course once he did bet river, I was not feelnig i had a winner, but enough times to call turn and river. Link to post Share on other sites
Pancake407 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 I cant see me c/r that flop. I do like the b/f, b/f, c/c line. The only problem I have with b/f, is that it is horrible for metagame purposes. last night, I have A2s in sb. 6 MaxUTG raisee, I'm only caller. My 2nd hand, maybe loose call.Ace on flopI c/c all streets.He has KK. MHIG.Some say I need to b/f river to get value from TT-KK that won't bet it.Against unknown at 2/4 6 Max, I figured the odds of him betting an underpair were about as good as him calling a bet w/o the risk of a raise and I fold best hand sometimes. Also, my point here, is I never defined my hand for him, so he is more likely to continue betting with KK.Of course once he did bet river, I was not feelnig i had a winner, but enough times to call turn and river.My line for a weak A against a PF raiser OOP is - c/c, c/c, b/f.I like your logic against c/c river against an unknown, but I guess ive just gotten into the habit with this line, its almost a natural instinct to take this line religiously for me. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 ******************oh and in general.b/f OOP- for value.- as a semi bluff- when opponent will call with more hands you beat than he bets- when opponent is loose/passive- when villan is not tricky- when pot aint too bigTOP covers this really wellScreech kicks ***.I may butcher it Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 I don't think I like the bet/fold on the flop simply because once we put in a bet and he raises, there are 16.5 small bets in the pot. Getting 16.5:1, don't we kinda have to call on the flop in that spot, even if we know we're behind? Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 b/f iss not horrible for meta game.unless you do it in quick succession.it's strong.b/c is horrbile for meta game, when palyers like me will just wait till the river to get the extra bet out of you.c/c sucks because villan will get the free showdown mentality and peel a lot more.keeping pressure on with the river bet is important toolsaving a BB in a small-med pot against strightforward players is also smart.use B/F, just dont overuse itimo. I don't think I like the bet/fold on the flop simply because once we put in a bet and he raises, there are 16.5 small bets in the pot. Getting 16.5:1, don't we kinda have to call on the flop in that spot, even if we know we're behind?can we make up the 6 SB's we need with 2 streets left?I doubt it.If other player calls raise, I'm in to see the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
thecamelot 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 Define meta-game ?-----------I can't see myself c/r'ing that flop... I also cringe at folding in a large pot, however.. The b/f line is making more sense, I think this weekend I'll have to pull out my TOP and re-read it... Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Define meta-game ?uh...can't I just throw it out to feel smart?I think of it as those intangibles that impact future hands.Say you check the nut boat OOP on the river, and villan sees this.It looks really weak, until, maybe he thinks "hmm..should I bet TPTK this time", and recalls your slowplay. You get to SD free.You raise open from MP3 4 times in a row, you might get more action onyour truly strong hands.I don't know..its jus how I think of it. Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 can we make up the 6 SB's we need with 2 streets left?I doubt it.If other player calls raise, I'm in to see the turn.Ah, but here's the thing...what you fail to realize is, I forgot how to figure out odds and didn't remember that you're 22:1 to make a set on the next card. I bet you feel silly now, Actuary. Wait...that's me that feels silly. :)I was thinking for some reason the odds were more manageable and that implied odds would actually be feasible. But yeah, 6 SB is far less likely, so I'm down with your reasoning. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 imo.can we make up the 6 SB's we need with 2 streets left?I doubt it.If other player calls raise, I'm in to see the turn.seeing as 6 SB equals 3 BB, yes I think we can make that up on turn and river. might be close, and some bd draws would make it closer to a b/c, but I think we can make up 6 SB on later rounds. Link to post Share on other sites
Pancake407 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 b/f iss not horrible for meta game.unless you do it in quick succession.it's strong.b/c is horrbile for meta game, when palyers like me will just wait till the river to get the extra bet out of you.c/c sucks because villan will get the free showdown mentality and peel a lot more.keeping pressure on with the river bet is important toolsaving a BB in a small-med pot against strightforward players is also smart.use B/F, just dont overuse itimo.can we make up the 6 SB's we need with 2 streets left?I doubt it.If other player calls raise, I'm in to see the turn.Really good post. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 OOOPs.I kinda goofed, and was looking at 6 BB.Ok, 3 BB.Well, we HAVE TO c/r the turn right?So we usually get two bets there and get a call on river.But not always.Still tough.******************************************my new stance:B/c flopc/f turn, if he raised flop.Rise is a better counter than me. Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 my new stance:B/c flopc/f turn, if he raised flop.Rise is a better counter than me.Okay, I have to stop being unable to count. I just blindly agreed with the number Actuary threw at me (which was the right number, but I too thought BB and said SB for some reason). Now we're all really on the same page and all is well in the microlimit strat forum. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now