loves me some suited nectars (1/2)

[CobaltBlue 662]

Bodog 1/2 NLHE (9-handed)UTG $175UTG+1 $272MP1 $93Cobalt $233MP3 $119CO $121Cobalt is MP2 w/ 6 5 . Been at the table a little while. Pre-flop min-raises are pretty common and don't seem to mean much. I've been playing TAG. CO is playing straight-forward, weak poker.Pre-flop:UTG callsFlop ($27): 3 J 4 (6 players)3 checks, Cobalt bets $20Turn ($107) (2 players): K (2 players)Cobalt checks...CO has $77 left.'New hotness' or 'old and busted'?

[David_Nicoson 1]

Bodog 1/2 NLHE (9-handed)UTG $175UTG+1 $272MP1 $93Cobalt $233MP3 $119CO $121Cobalt is MP2 w/ 6 5 . Been at the table a little while. Pre-flop min-raises are pretty common and don't seem to mean much. I've been playing TAG. CO is playing straight-forward, weak poker.Pre-flop:UTG callsFlop ($27): 3 J 4 (6 players)3 checks, Cobalt bets $20Turn ($107) (2 players): K (2 players)Cobalt checks...CO has $77 left.'New hotness' or 'old and busted'?

You're getting odds to call even if he goes all-in, assuming your clubs are live (which is very likely the case). I think I might push this turn and try to pick it up.

[jimmybaker04 0]

I agree. We should really drop the hammer on this turn. If he is straight forward and weak he is going to give you credit for a big hand here since he already showed his strength by raising and you are going after him again. There is a good chance we could get this player to dump AJ or QJ, hands that would make us a 2-1 dog.The way I view a hand like this is when I pick up the double draw on the turn I decide if the hand is such that I will call his all-in. If I will, then I am going all-in into him. This way we have the benefit of fold equity.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I'd just push on the turn.The king is very often be a scare card for him. If he does bet the turn, he's probably going to be commited to a call with as little as a jack.

[petersun 0]

The problem with not going all in here is that if a blank hits on the river, it's harder to win this pot with a bluff. So you need to push here. If he has two pairs or trips, he will call. If he has just jacks, you put him in a tough position.

[violaman 0]

I agree that pushing here is the optimum play. The K is your dream card other than a clean str8 card because if he's holding AJ or QJ then you have a good chance of taking him off it. If he goes allin I actually disagree that you have the odds to call, atleast in a cash game. With 9 clubs and 6 non-club deuces and sixes, your 15 outs will win you the hand on the river just less than a third of the time. If he goes allin you would have to call 77 to win 181. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but you would need the pot to be at least 241 to continue in this spot. If he bets less than allin, like 30 - 50, you ought to only call because he is goin to go all the way with you if you hit your draw on the river. All of this is only important if you check, which is the incorrect play here by far- you aren't cashing into the King's added fold equity when you bet it.

[CobaltBlue 662]

viola, if we'll win a third of the time, we're getting 2 to 1. The pot will be laying us better odds than that (2.4 to 1) if he goes all-in.I'm quite sure that my opponent has a good jack in this spot. I'm pretty sure that he's going to call my bet. I'm also pretty sure that if he bets this turn, it's going to be extremely weak - probably in the range of $20-$30 (though we can still profitably call his all-in)...which is quite a bit cheaper than trying to take him off his hand. I guess I should've clarified that by 'weak', I meant that his bets are too weak when he has a good hand, not that he's prone to fold a lot.Interestingly, he checked through and gave me a free card. I hit the 7 on the river. I bet $40, he called, mucked the QJ, and acted stupified that I'd called his $20 re-raise on the flop.Given the knowledge that we could get a free card for a very disguised hand, do you guys still dislike the check? I have no problem putting in lots of money on a flop with an OESD + flush draw, but I'm much more hesitant with only one card to come. Unless I've got the lead, I usually want to see a cheapish river.The suggestion about the king being a scare card is a good one. However, we're against a somewhat thinking opponent. He remarked afterward, "When you called the re-raise on the flop, I figured you had some sort of good made hand." What kind of hand could I have had with a king in it? KJ is pretty much the only option...and it would've been a strange story to donk-bet instead of going for the check-raise. The same goes for a set.Putting myself in my opponents' shoes, the only hand that makes sense for a "check/call, donk-bet" line is 43 (which is unlikely), or some sort of draw.

[jimmybaker04 0]

I agree that pushing here is the optimum play. The K is your dream card other than a clean str8 card because if he's holding AJ or QJ then you have a good chance of taking him off it. If he goes allin I actually disagree that you have the odds to call, atleast in a cash game. With 9 clubs and 6 non-club deuces and sixes, your 15 outs will win you the hand on the river just less than a third of the time. If he goes allin you would have to call 77 to win 181. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but you would need the pot to be at least 241 to continue in this spot. If he bets less than allin, like 30 - 50, you ought to only call because he is goin to go all the way with you if you hit your draw on the river. All of this is only important if you check, which is the incorrect play here by far- you aren't cashing into the King's added fold equity when you bet it.

Sorry, but you are wrong. We are getting 2.4-1 on our money. We are a 2.1-1 dog.All your math is right (as far the outs, etc.) We will win the hand just less than a third of the time. I am not sure what mistake you made, but the $241 pot is a miscalculation. We needed the pot to be $161.

[jimmybaker04 0]

viola, if we'll win a third of the time, we're getting 2 to 1. The pot will be laying us better odds than that (2.4 to 1) if he goes all-in.I'm quite sure that my opponent has a good jack in this spot. I'm pretty sure that he's going to call my bet. I'm also pretty sure that if he bets this turn, it's going to be extremely weak - probably in the range of $20-$30 (though we can still profitably call his all-in)...which is quite a bit cheaper than trying to take him off his hand. I guess I should've clarified that by 'weak', I meant that his bets are too weak when he has a good hand, not that he's prone to fold a lot.Interestingly, he checked through and gave me a free card. I hit the 7 on the river. I bet $40, he called, mucked the QJ, and acted stupified that I'd called his $20 re-raise on the flop.Given the knowledge that we could get a free card for a very disguised hand, do you guys still dislike the check? I have no problem putting in lots of money on a flop with an OESD + flush draw, but I'm much more hesitant with only one card to come. Unless I've got the lead, I usually want to see a cheapish river.The suggestion about the king being a scare card is a good one. However, we're against a somewhat thinking opponent. He remarked afterward, "When you called the re-raise on the flop, I figured you had some sort of good made hand." What kind of hand could I have had with a king in it? KJ is pretty much the only option...and it would've been a strange story to donk-bet instead of going for the check-raise. The same goes for a set.Putting myself in my opponents' shoes, the only hand that makes sense for a "check/call, donk-bet" line is 43 (which is unlikely), or some sort of draw.

edit: We never check called. We led off on the flop and got min. raised.Just as the K was a scare card for him, it could also be a scare card for you if you were holding a set or like you said bottom two. By "scare" I don't mean that card suggests we are beat, but it scares us enough that we do not want to let a free river run off. I think a lot of players may play 33, 44, or 34 by leading off all-in on the turn here. Since we all put him or AJ or QJ he could easily hold A J or Q J .I agree our betting pattern would tell an odd story, but not totally unbelievable.I think the only way you want the turn to go check, check is if you are virtually certain he will call your all-in with "just jacks." Otherwise, I would push the turn because it is the only way for us to win this pot without the best hand.