playing kings with 2 aces on the board

[Abbaddabba 0]

I wouldnt call down if someone else took the lead.The issue is that no one has put out a single bet, and we beat a LOT of hands here that call down.

[Smasharoo 0]

The issue is that no one has put out a single bet, and we beat a LOT of hands here that call down.Think for a minute how about how many a lot has to be if you bet the turn. You're folding to any diamond on the river, no? You're folding to any raise. You're getting value when JK or ahwtever calls. You're spewing chips when a flush flat calls fearing you filled up on the turn. You're spewing chips when a weak ace calls that would have allowed youto show this down more cheaply.Why do you want to spend more than nessicary to show this maringal hand down?I think betting KJ is here is pretty silly, and I think you'd say the same if shown that hand in isolation.good luck..

[wrto4556 0]

sometimes i check the turn sometimes i bet it. The river has to be bet though. If we bet the turn and were just called the river would be a solid value bet, too.

[Smasharoo 0]

The river has to be bet though.Yeah, absolutely.good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Think for a minute how about how many a lot has to be if you bet the turn.

The sum of all hands that call down on the turn that you have beat has to exceed the sum of all hands that have you beat (by some marginal amount), on account of the fact that hands that have you beat have you drawing to 2 cards, and hands that you have beat are often drawing to as much as 9. And i think that is the case more often than not.I suppose the WTSD and W$SD figures would help, but generally speaking, they will fit the necessary criteria. And if they are particularly tight, you will often have them folding diamonds which is a very good thing for you; much better than if they called, even.

You're spewing chips when a flush flat calls fearing you filled up on the turn

How so? You were planning on calling a river bet from UTG on a blank river. If you bet and he called, you would check behind.You were also (i think) planning on calling down 2 bets assuming a blank river, if UTG folded. That is the same as if you bet the turn and check/called a blank river.When both get involved, it gets fuzzy.

[Smasharoo 0]

If you bet and he called, you would check behind. I would?WTF am I betting the turn for then?

[Abbaddabba 0]

Ok, not necessarily.But you could, which would imply that you're better off.You're given the option of showing it down for 1 bet, but if you think you still have value despite the turn call, you could bet the river too.And the reason you're betting the turn is to protect against single diamonds.

[Smasharoo 0]

And the reason you're betting the turn is to protect against single diamonds.Protect by getting them to correctly call their 5 to 1 shot getting 7 to 1?Man, I'm tricky.

[Actuary 3]

And the reason you're betting the turn is to protect against single diamonds.Protect by getting them to correctly call their 5 to 1 shot getting 7 to 1?Man, I'm tricky.

ok..I know this one"Protect" in the sense you aren't giving infinite odds.Call it value.Although, as usual, Smash, I'm reconsidering the turn bet after reading this.Doesn't the second Ace help our equity? (aside from being a )So Smash you are cheking a 4 too, more so, right?

[Abbaddabba 0]

Protect by getting them to correctly call their 5 to 1 shot getting 7 to 1? Man, I'm tricky.

You prefer getting some value to none.Protecting doesnt require you get full value, or that you get folds. But you definitely DO protect against low diamonds occasionally. There are often pairs that will peel the flop and fold the turn with something like a 6 of diamonds. But no matter if they call or fold, you still benefit. Checking behind when they have this diamond is the worst case scenario.

[Smasharoo 0]

But no matter if they call or fold, you still benefit. Only.When.IAm.Ahead.What's the hard about that?good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Only. When. I Am. Ahead. What's the hard about that? good luck.

We're specifically talking about instances where they hold a lone diamond. Remember? You made the comment about them getting 7:1 on a 5:1 draw.In those instances,we areahead.That's what 'the hard' is.

[Smasharoo 0]

We're specifically talking about instances where they hold a lone diamond. Remember? You made the comment about them getting 7:1 on a 5:1 draw. So your theory is that most of the time here, no one has an A, but they do have diamonds, and we need to "protect" our KK by betting into them when they have plenty of equity to call.Got it. Why not checkraise and hope that button bets and you can make UTG look at two cold giving him incorrect calls to call with his lone diamond?Oh yeah because it's mindbogglingly stupid.Like your argument.Hahaha.Man, I'm the greatest.good luck.

[Actuary 3]

Smash, since you are still awake..could you adrees the post above...where I suggest that you wold check a non Ace even moreso. THe Ace actually helps our equity, aside from being a diamond, no?thanks .you are persuasive, good to have you back more

[Smasharoo 0]

Doesn't the second Ace help our equity?Well, in the sense that we have nut two pair now it does.In the sense that it makes 80% of the hands that call the flop, no not really

[Actuary 3]

Doesn't the second Ace help our equity?Well, in the sense that we have nut two pair now it does.In the sense that it makes 80% of the hands that call the flop, no not really

I meant that it reduces the chance our opponet(s) held an Ace, in the Bayesian sense.You knew what I meant!

[Smasharoo 0]

I meant that it reduces the chance our opponet(s) held an Ace, in the Bayesian sense. Objectively, yes.However being in a game where people regualarly call two cold with A6o, not so much really.good luck.

[Abbaddabba 0]

So your theory is that most of the time here, no one has an A, but they do have diamonds, and we need to "protect" our KK by betting into them when they have plenty of equity to call.  Got it. Why not checkraise and hope that button bets and you can make UTG look at two cold giving him incorrect calls to call with his lone diamond?  Oh yeah because it's mindbogglingly stupid.  

Uhm, because when the button bets, we're given reason to believe that we're behind. Much more so than when everyone checks to us repeatedly. It's clearly a LOT less likely that we're ahead when a passive player bets there, so we dont expect to have an edge. So we dont want to raise. But in this situation, i think we get more calls from worse hands than times that there are better hands out there, and we occasionally get hands that should be calling to fold, which wins us the 20% of equity in the pot that would have been given to the person holding a lone diamond. That ends up equaling roughly 1.2 bets, which is significantly better than getting a call, from which we win an additional .6 bets in value if they're drawing strictly to a diamond (we win .8 of their bet, they win .2 of hours). Twice as valuable, almost exactly.

[pokerplayer24 0]

Dont get how checking can be an option vs passive opponents unless its check/fold on either the turn or river. We will never get bluffed at by these opponents. By betting if we are raised we are almost 100% sure that we are behind and fold losing 1 bb. If this goes check/call check/call we have gained no information and it has cost us to 2 bb to showdown. Most hands that we have beat are checking behind on the turn and any hand that we are beat by is betting. So I don't see how check/calling the turn and river could ever be better then b/f ing the turn.The only slight advantage of checking this turn is that we are able to see what UTG does if the button bets which is a relatively big if.

[Smasharoo 0]

Uhm, because when the button bets, we're given reason to believe that we're behind. Much more so than when everyone checks to us repeatedlyCorrect.Which is why value betting this river is so good, and why betting the turn is so marginal.Do you see why now that you've explained it?good luck.

[Actuary 3]

I'm getting there.smash,you're betting this turn if you have pos right?

[Smasharoo 0]

you're betting this turn if you have pos right?Probably.good luck.