can you get good without seeing talent?

[Hubris 0]

I was just curious, but has anyone here who is a successful poker player go without having seen and played with at least one very good poker player every now and then?I'm asking this, because I've never really played against a great poker player, and I feel like it's hurting my game. Most games that I play in I can regularily win at (live ones at least), and usually its against some pretty bad players. Am I missing out on a key experience in becoming a good poker player by having not played with anyone significantly (or noticeably) better than myself? And I'm definitely not saying I'm a great poker player or anything, I'm decent, but I just normally play with people who are very very bad.Is playing against someone good a key learning experience that everyone should go through at one point? I just feel like I'm not learning the game as fast as I could by consistently playing and beating bad players.

[Abbaddabba 0]

If you can reliably find games at stakes that you want to play that have nothing but poor players, i dont think i would be concerned.Who cares if it's hurting your game? It's helping your bottom line.Plus...Playing well against good players requires a whole different skillset from playing well against bad players.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Playing well against good players requires a whole different skillset from playing well against bad players.

I think this is the point that the OP was trying to make...or the question he was trying to ask. I think it depends a little bit on your goals in poker. For someone with visions of the big game who intends to play great players all of the time, then yes it's probably important to them to play against players better than them so they can learn the skills necessary to beat those people. But, if your goal in poker is to make money (which it should be) then you should simply be trying to play worse players as much as possible, because that's where your money comes from.

[TheIceman05 0]

Who cares if it's hurting your game?  It's helping your bottom line.

1) At least answer the question if you're going to be sassy2) That's incredibly short-sighted. I've played in tons of games bad for my shorterm bankroll, good for my longterm game.You can get good at beating bad games, but the only way to learn to beat good players is to play themIce

[PAYforUSC 0]

You can get good at beating bad games, but the only way to learn to beat good players is to play them.

[Abbaddabba 0]

1) At least answer the question if you're going to be sassy  2) That's incredibly short-sighted. I've played in tons of games bad for my shorterm bankroll, good for my longterm game.  You can get good at beating bad games, but the only way to learn to beat good players is to play them

I also said before hand, "If you can reliably find games at stakes that you want to play that have nothing but poor players, i dont think i would be concerned."I dont normally go looking for tough opponents.If you're at the point where there's an over abundance of bad players, you're in pretty good shape.So yeah, playing exclusively against bad players will hurt the way that you play against good players. But if you ever get to that point where you exclusively play against bad players, it shouldnt be a concern.

[acesfullmike 0]

from a simple standpoint, DN himself would have to change up his game in order to be most successful at the 1/2 level. yeah, he knows everything about pot odds, etc, etc. But the move he might make on sammy farha, that would be recognized, understood, and folded by an excellent player, will be called down by joe scmoe with bottom pair no kicker, to beat DN's two overs and nut flush draw with excellent odds to take down the pot. This is from a guy that has realized he isnt as good as he thinks, can beat the 2/4 limit game, and wants to learn to destroy the 5/10. That is my goal personally, so some of the more sophisticated moves are wasted. This is going to be my new sig line.

[srblan 0]

You definitely learn a lot from playing against players just a little bit better than you. If they are a lot better than you, the moves will often be over your head. If they are worse, you can get sloppy sometimes. In order to better your skill, you might want to take shots at a higher limit. If you can avoid rebuying if you get broke(this will most likely happen, all ego aside), it will be a good learning experience. I have played with some top players, and I've even had a pro (not a "name" pro, but he's been on TV a couple times) let me look over his shoulder as he played. One thing that you learn is that as aggressive as you think you are, they are more aggressive. You feel like your stack is in constant jeopardy if you make a mistake. Once you can get comfortable putting that feeling in the background, you will start picking up on things that you didn't notice before because you were worried about the relentless aggression.To echo what others have said, you can learn the mechanics of the game playing with novices, but you won't get much of a chance to learn fancier plays necessary to excel at the higher limits. For instance, I had pocket queens on the button in a game that's just a bit above my comfort zone. I had a tight image, and my raise got one caller (a guy who had limped ahead of me). The flop came K Q K. That is pretty much the perfect flop for me, so I checked behind when the limper checked. In my mind, the check could have been out of fear as much as out of strength. I made a little milk bet on the turn, and the guy folded.I said, "I had a monster," and the pro I mentioned earlier said "I know, you shouldn't have checked, it made your hand stronger." In a lower limit game, you check to give the other players a chance to catch up, since they aren't paying attention to your hand, they'd rather play their own hand. However, at a higher limit, a continuation bet is expected, and you can expect to get played back at if they are going to give you any action. He said, "Even if you flopped quads, you should put a bet out." Hope that I didn't write too much to get this read. Anyway, good luck.

[wildcardsean 0]

i totally understand wehre you're coming from. here's the problem - there are an abundance of bad players out there at all levels, so beating them is clearly the first step. since you don't intend to become a high stakes player anytime soon, i'd stay focused on crushing those tables full of schmucks. for more sophisticated plays, you'll find more of that in tournaments at low limits.