weak/tight after the flop???

[benhoug 0]

I played an interesting hand last night and I'd like to hear others' opinions..25/.50 blinds NLHE ($50 buy-in).I had about $90, other player had just about the same amount.I had the button, and there were 4 limpers in front of me. With K J , I raised it 5x BB to $2.5. The first 3 limpers called, but the last guy, seated directly to my right in the Cutoff did something very curious, he raised to $8. What hand would this guy limp/re-raise with from such late position. I was thoroughly confused.Now there was around $18.50 in the pot and I decided to call. Not so much b/c I thought I had a good hand, but for a couple of other reasons. A.) I had the button. B.) if he missed the flop I might be able to take it away from him. C.) I had a reasonable drawing hand, where if I hit the right flop I could double through this guy.Everyone else folds.Flop: A 10 5 . Cutoff bets $5 into an approx. $25 pot. I thought about raising, but just called instead. Turn: A . Not a good card for my hand, though it could have been a good bluffing card. Once again the cutoff bets $5 into an approx. $35 pot. I couldn't figure this one out at all. it was either EXTREME strength, or EXTREME weakness, I just didn't know which one. Once again I thought about raising, but thought the only thing that could achieve is inducing him to move in on me, and price me out of the pot. Once again I just called.River: 9 . I had made my flush, but with how goofy this guy played the pot I was left w/ a tough decision. There was now about $50 in the pot and I was beating a lot of hands, but there were a few hands out there that had me pretty scared, and I coulnd't get that limp/re-raise pre-flop out of my head, so when he bet $5 once again I weakly decided to call.Thoughts on the hand. Is that the definition of Weak/Tight after the flop, or was I "protecting my draw?" Also, what did the cutoff have???

[Scott3705 0]

CO has small/mid PP.Raise the flop. Hopefully he didn't catch his 5 for a set here. What bet did u call on the river?

[benhoug 0]

What bet did u call on the river?

Sorry, edited original post.

[GeneralKong 0]

I honestly have no Idea but I can speculate. Actually I agree with captain shamrock he's sitting on pretty much nothing (low to mid PP) and seeing as his bets didnt increase he's either extremely weak or "Milking" you. I really dont like these small bets to win an extra .03. But I wouldnt say they are too fishy he's probably sitting on a weak ace (reraising you preflop to take the raises) and really has no Idea where you stand becuase of your just call the whole way down. You'll never figure out where you stand in a hand by just calling so put your big boy pants on and raise him. I'd say he's got 77 or 88 and if your going to draw to a flush after the board pairs, then you must think it will be good when it hits. SO BET THE DAMN HAND. Even you say this is a weak play but I say "Hey, nice call on the river champ, did you get your panties in a knot?"

[offmandh 0]

I think you raise to 20. if he re-raises you, you know you lost the hand. if he reraises you on a bluff GOD BLESS HIM (hes not this good. hell, even I'M not this good!) but there is a greater chance that he will call you with a worse hand like KK, AK, AQ, all of which he would play this way. What else could he have AA for quads? Definately raise IMO

[Pokerdad2222 0]

I think you raise to 20. if he re-raises you, you know you lost the hand. if he reraises you on a bluff GOD BLESS HIM (hes not this good. hell, even I'M not this good!) but there is a greater chance that he will call you with a worse hand like KK, AK, AQ, all of which he would play this way. What else could he have AA for quads? Definately raise IMO

I agree that you raise, maybe larger than 20 depending on this guys stack. If he started the hand with 50 or so then your almost commiting yourself to this pot with a raise thouh so it would be tough to get away from after that. If he started with 50 and we raise to 20 then there is about 52 in the pot right? If Villian re-raises all in then we owe 22$ into a 89$ pot. Am I right here??? We cant fold here getting 4-1. Is a push an option on this flop ignoring the turn card?? We have at least 12 clean outs between flush and gutshot.

[Scott3705 0]

my line: Raise to $30. Fold to an allin... take a free card on the turn if you're called.

[fopkins 0]

my line: Raise to $30. Fold to an allin... take a free card on the turn if you're called.

I play it the same.-fop

[benhoug 0]

The more I thought about this hand, the more poorly I thought I played it. I just took the p**ssy line the whole time. I should have raised to $25 or $30 on the flop, but instead I just weakly called the whole way down. I should have also raised on the end, but I just couldn't do it. I had this fear that he would flip over AA or 10 10 and I'd get busted drawing to 1 out. I know, this is a horrible way to think, but what can I say...The cutoff ended up tabling KK, and my flush was good enough. The funny thing is if he hadn't done that goofy limp/re-raise from the cutoff I would've played the hand way more aggressively, but the whole time something just didn't feel right. I felt like I was walking into a trap. Fortunately I wasn't. What do you guys think of Cutoff's pre-flop play. It achieved what he was looking for - me to call with a dominated hand, but it seems waaaaaay too risky for me. He had to be close to 100% certain that I would raise for this to work. If I don't raise he's just let 5 idiots into the pot cheaply...Discuss.

[Scott3705 0]

I should have also raised on the end, but I just couldn't do it. I had this fear that he would flip over AA or 10 10 and I'd get busted drawing to 1 out. I know, this is a horrible way to think, but what can I say...Probably won more money this way The cutoff ended up tabling KK, and my flush was good enough. The funny thing is if he hadn't done that goofy limp/re-raise from the cutoff I would've played the hand way more aggressively, but the whole time something just didn't feel right. I felt like I was walking into a trap. Fortunately I wasn't. What do you guys think of Cutoff's pre-flop play. It achieved what he was looking for - me to call with a dominated hand, but it seems waaaaaay too risky for me. He had to be close to 100% certain that I would raise for this to work. If I don't raise he's just let 5 idiots into the pot cheaply...He's an idiot. and I don't think he necessarily felt that you had to raise. i'm sure he would have been jamming this pot if the flop came w/o an ace.

[Merby 3]

The more I thought about this hand, the more poorly I thought I played it.  I just took the p**ssy line the whole time.  I should have raised to $25 or $30 on the flop, but instead I just weakly called the whole way down.  I should have also raised on the end, but I just couldn't do it.  I had this fear that he would flip over AA or 10 10 and I'd get busted drawing to 1 out.  I know, this is a horrible way to think, but what can I say...The cutoff ended up tabling KK, and my flush was good enough.  The funny thing is if he hadn't done that goofy limp/re-raise from the cutoff I would've played the hand way more aggressively, but the whole time something just didn't feel right.  I felt like I was walking into a trap.  Fortunately I wasn't.  What do you guys think of Cutoff's pre-flop play.  It achieved what he was looking for - me to call with a dominated hand, but it seems waaaaaay too risky for me.  He had to be close to 100% certain that I would raise for this to work.  If I don't raise he's just let 5 idiots into the pot cheaply...Discuss.

The cutoff's play was indeed very goofy--Downright terrible:Before I elaborate, I want you to consider two thngs: --> Had you (or one of the blinds) currently been raising a lot of hands pre-flop? --> Were most hands being raised pre-flop?If either is the case, then perhaps he was pretty sure his pre-flop call was still safe since he felt there was a high probability of being able to reraise.Even if he was confident that there was going to be a raise, he should have pumped more than $8. As you pointed out, the pot was around $18.50 with his raise, pricing a lot of hands to call the extra $6.50. If I am him, I push it to around $15. After the flop, his bet was too small, even for a sandard probe bet: he should bet enough to not price any flush draws to call (hence he knows any callers means he is beat, and can get away from the hand for cheap). If this bet is close to half his stack, then he must decide (before you act) to either move allin first, or (if he's not willing to commit to kings with a flopped ace), get away from the hand: I recommend open farrelling here.Since he gained no information with his flop bet, he continues to bet into you without any clue as to whether or not he was good (flush draw or an ace...?)Bottom line: he should have initially raised pre-flop (about $2 to $3), then bet around half pot on the flop if it is checked to him on the flop. If there is any action before it gets to him --it depends on the action-- but he should usually fold.Cheers,MerbyPlease stay tuned to my next post: Your playAnnouncer: While making this strategy post, Merby has made an error in his post because he wants to play with you! While discussing your opponent's play, Merby has recommended a strategy which is not correct strategy under the given the given circumstances. Can you spot the error?

[Merby 3]

Your play was not too bad... but I think there could have been some improvements:Pre-flop: I like your raise pre-flop. With so many limpers, nobody has shown any strength and this seems like a good spot to try to take down the pot (or at least "weed out a few hands). I make this raise for two reasons: 1) With so many limpers I may well have the best hand and take this pot down pre-flop. 2) I want to weed out the weak hands and "find out where I'm at" in this hand.I am partly trying to take this hand down, so I want to put in a big raise: I suggest moving all-in here. Nevertheless, since you have position on any potential callers, I *suppose* an argument could be made for a raise of $2.50. Nevertheless, I think this is weak.Once your opponent reraises, I would *normally* recommend laying your hand down. Simply put, you are probably beat, and most likely dominated. As you point out, however, his raise is only to $8, and he limped in from late position in an unraised pot. I probably would have put him on: 1) a mid pair (8 to J-ish): he is likely looking to take down the pot or at least thin the field. 2) AK or AQ: Perhaps he was wanting to limp and see if he improved on the flop, but once the oppertunity presented itself, he decided to take the pot/thin the field. 3) A MONSTER (AA or KK): he suspected the button or blinds to raise...?Based on the play of the play of the hand, I would have thought case (1) was most likely (since his pre-flop call makes perfect sense. Case (2) was slightly less likely (some people don't like AK or AQ and refuse to raise...). Only remotely do I suspect case (3): I only remember TWICE in the last month seeing this action which resulted in the opponent turning up aces -- and in that case, his reraise was all-in.Given his play, together with the price to call and your position, I suggest calling his pre-flop raise. Post-Flop: I agree in your assment that EITHER he has a huge hand OR he has no ace and doesn't like the flop. Based on his play, I rule out AK or AQ, since he would probably push more with the flush draw out there (if not on the flop, then he certainly would push the turn). Therefore I narrow him down to a pocket pair that missed the board, OR pocket tens/pocket aces/pocket fives. Actually I too would think pocket AA is most likely: if he did not have an ace, then the pre-flop play would should make him suspect you for an ace.Since the boat does not arrive to the turn and he is vulnerable to the flush draw on the flop, I think it is far more likely he missed the flop.Bottom line: I like either play:1) Calling him down: he is giving you the price to call for the flush, plus you have position and in your shoes, I would have suspected hitting a King would have been enough (because I put him MOST likely on a pair in the 8 to J range pre-flop). If you hit your flush, I would recommend not raising. Your read of his play has put him on one of two hands: a hand that will beat a flush or a hand that cannot call a raise. Hence there no value in this raise. 2) Move in on the flop: once again, you have put him on one of two hands: a hand that will put you all-in if you raise on the flop (so you might as well put it all in yourself and put the pressue on him) or he has a hand that doesn't like the flop, and will fold. Doing this play is best on the flop, since you are semi-bluffing with two draws to the flush and not just one. Also, if you had the ace, this would probably be your move (there is a flush draw out there, after all). Therefore if you make a play at this hand it *must* be on the flop. Bottom Line: I think the way you played the hand was the best of your options. If you do anything differently, I recommend moving in on the flop (in my opinion, this is a close second). If he plays his holdings correctly, you would have folded pre-flop-- that being said, I don't think it would have been a bad play to fold pre-flop as any reraising hand probably dominates your holdings. Nevertheless, I feel the pre-flop call was optimal under the circumstances.Cheers,MerbyAnnouncer: While making this strategy post, Merby has made an error in his post because he wants to play with you! While discussing your play, Merby has recommended a strategy which is not correct strategy under the given the given circumstances. Can you spot the error?<edited for spelling>