analyze it

[Hobbes 1]

If you check/fold the turn you are left with 5 BB's.If you check and the UTG+1 moves in you fold and are left with 5 BB's.If you bet 3k and are called again, then miss/fold you are left with 4BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised all in you fold and are left with 4 BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised 6k, you call miss/fold you are left with 2BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet allin you are called/miss you are left with zero BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit you have 16 BB'sBoth of the best choices include betting 3k. At this stage in the tourney what is the potential/immediate cash loss from 5BB's to 2BB's?THE END

Might as well add the bet/called/hit/bet/lose/zero BB's option...

[DrZebra 0]

They are the best results, not the best choices.

welcome to the thread.Being the short stack out of seven and being very much the short stack out of seven is not too different in immediate cash equity already ITM in a MTT. Risking those 3BB's for the chance to have potential cash equity seems like an interesting possibly good play.

[Scott3705 0]

Being the short stack out of seven and being very much the short stack out of seven is not too different in immediate cash equity already ITM in a MTT. Risking those 3BB's for the chance to have potential cash equity seems like an interesting possibly good play.

Why is this line better than anything that Hobbes and I have given?

[DrZebra 0]

BECAUSE

If you check/fold the turn you are left with 5 BB's.If you check and the UTG+1 moves in you fold and are left with 5 BB's.If you bet 3k and are called again, then miss/fold you are left with 4BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised all in you fold and are left with 4 BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised 6k, you call miss/fold you are left with 2BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet allin you are called/miss you are left with zero BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit you have 16 BB'sBoth of the best choices include betting 3k. At this stage in the tourney what is the potential/immediate cash loss from 5BB's to 2BB's?THE END

[Scott3705 0]

BECAUSE

If you check/fold the turn you are left with 5 BB's.If you check and the UTG+1 moves in you fold and are left with 5 BB's.If you bet 3k and are called again, then miss/fold you are left with 4BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised all in you fold and are left with 4 BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised 6k, you call miss/fold you are left with 2BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet allin you are called/miss you are left with zero BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit you have 16 BB'sBoth of the best choices include betting 3k. At this stage in the tourney what is the potential/immediate cash loss from 5BB's to 2BB's?THE END

Yeah, i'm gonna need an answer on that.

[DrZebra 0]

BECAUSEIf you check/fold the turn you are left with 5 BB's.If you check and the UTG+1 moves in you fold and are left with 5 BB's.If you bet 3k and are called again, then miss/fold you are left with 4BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised all in you fold and are left with 4 BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised 6k, you call miss/fold you are left with 2BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet allin you are called/miss you are left with zero BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit you have 16 BB's.Both of the best choices include betting 3k. At this stage in the tourney what is the potential/immediate cash loss from 5BB's to 2BB's?THE END

Yeah, i'm gonna need an answer on that.

You seem prefer the plays in bold. I do not.

[Scott3705 0]

BECAUSEIf you check/fold the turn you are left with 5 BB's.If you check and the UTG+1 moves in you fold and are left with 5 BB's.If you bet 3k and are called again, then miss/fold you are left with 4BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised all in you fold and are left with 4 BB's.If you bet 3k and are raised 6k, you call miss/fold you are left with 2BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit/bet you have 16BB's.If you bet allin you are called/miss you are left with zero BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit you have 16 BB's.Both of the best choices include betting 3k.  At this stage in the tourney what is the potential/immediate cash loss  from 5BB's to 2BB's?THE END

Yeah, i'm gonna need an answer on that.

You seem prefer the plays in bold. I do not.

No. I like these choicesFold we have 7.5 BB's leftReraise preflop: folded: we have 8.5 BB's left Called: we win: we have 17 BB's left We lose: we're out which is just as good as 2 BB's which you think is just as good as 5 BB's.I'm not letting this get to the turn if this is where i'm making my stand. As i said early, the mistakes are made on the flop and preflop. the turn is uninteresting as you are virtually dead in the water for the rest of the tournament after you have put in these two horrendous min bets.

[DrZebra 0]

Fold we have 7.5 BB's left

You fold KJ suited from the BB for just over a min-raise?

Reraise preflop: folded: we have 8.5 BB's left                              Called: we win: we have 17 BB's left We lose: we're out

This is:If you bet allin you are called/miss you are left with zero BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit you have 16 BB's.

I'm not letting this get to the turn if this is where i'm making my stand.

If your view on tournament play includes your emboldened statement above, you need more help than I can provide you.

[Scott3705 0]

Fold we have 7.5 BB's left

You fold KJ suited from the BB for just over a min-raise?

Reraise preflop: folded: we have 8.5 BB's left                              Called: we win: we have 17 BB's left We lose: we're out

This is:If you bet allin you are called/miss you are left with zero BB's.-------------------------------------------------------->hit you have 16 BB's.

I'm not letting this get to the turn if this is where i'm making my stand.

If your view on tournament play includes your emboldened statement above, you need more help than I can provide you.

If your trying to make an insult you need to use the word overly in front of emboldened. it's not an insult without it.Second, i'm moving preflop or on the flop because i have more fold equity as i have more BB's. On a serious note: Either you have no idea what you're arguing anymore, or if you do, you have not communicated it in an effective manner, nor have you fully answered any of the legitimate questions brought up by any of the posters in this thread. You have this fuzzy, vague idea of how this play was the right and intelligent play. I'm not arguing the turn. I'm arguing preflop and the flop. to make this thread more coherent, please answer the following questions straightforwardly: 1. Why is min raising here a good idea if we're fairly sure it won't make anyone fold? 2. Why is moving all in preflop or stopping and going a bad play? 3. if these are bad plays, why is folding not correct?

[DrZebra 0]

I've addressed those concerns multiple times. I'm done with this thread.

[Scott3705 0]

I've addressed those concerns multiple times.  I'm done with this thread.

I said clearly and addressing the questions we had.

[Hobbes 1]

1. Why is min raising here a good idea if we're fairly sure it won't make anyone fold? 2. Why is moving all in preflop or stopping and going a bad play? 3. if these are bad plays, why is folding not correct?

I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV. I'll answer for the striped PhD here.1. "In the hand I posted above, the BB is clearly trying to steal/test the waters on the flop. When called he is no doubt worried, but when he sees the turn he is no doubt thinking "maybe the ace will scare my opponent away, after all he only called the minimum flop bet. not to mention I have outs." That far is clear and straightforward."Of course, what is left unexplained is what waters a minimum bet on the flop will test or what it can steal. And the minimum bet on the turn might annoy someone holding K-10, he's still making the "scared" call."maybe this guy is again block/stabbing the turn because he wants a showdown."It would be nice to know why we want a showdown with King high here."If there is ANY fold equity and we establish 4BB's to be equally bad to 5BB's, how can we not bet the turn?"There is no fold equity on a minimum bet into that pot. Just because 4 BB's is as equally bad as 5 BB's does not mean we need to be at 4 BB's.2. "Because of the immediate cash equity UTG+1 gains by calling for the possible negative equity he may perceive "Apparently all the players at the final table use Gigabet strategy.3. "Risking those 3BB's for the chance to have potential cash equity seems like an interesting possibly good play."Is this the same as "you can't win a pot without being in the hand?" No fold 'em hold 'em?

[copernicus 0]

No one, including DZ, seems to be willing to do the math...I guess I will have to later. Intuitively once it gets to the turn calling cant be right. I havent looked closely enough to see if results have been posted, but if they have there will still be issues over pre-flop fold equity.