akishore 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 3/6 ringtwo limpers who are both loose/passive, sb completes, i check in the bb with 10 7 .sb is a super rock, something like 11/2/0.4, and i've stolen three pots from him with stuff like jack high since he is so easily driven away with his tail in between his legs.(4 sb) J 7 3 sb bets, mp folds, button folds, sb calls.standard. he has called a flop raise and c/f the turn three times before.(4 bb) 9 sb checks, i betwhoops!i'm not sure how many outs to give myself. definitely four clean ones for the gutshot, and i think close to two for a 7.call and fold UI? i rarely do that and frankly, i hate that line, but it just may be best here?aseem Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 I think I probably look him up to see if he's catching on, but expect to be shown J9 a LOT.good luck Link to post Share on other sites
JaysonWeber 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 I don't know... I gotta disagree smash. I think you should disagree with yourself too :)There is only 4 bets in the pot now, relatively small, you've been doing this for a while now... He has rock'ish stats.. he's getting sick of this abuse. He finally got his hand to c/r you with. Do you really want to give him the benefit of paying him off?I don't know if I've gotten to passive... But I ussually fold here, and keep it in the back of my head... he now knows you can fold! So he might get a little crazy with you later, even if he doesn't... It isn't worth paying 2 more bets for that pot if you're gonna try to look him up.Just fold, It didn't work, He had a good hand this time. Let it go, Take his money the same way you did the last 3 times, let him have this pot.You're calling on a gut-shot and a very risky Ten... with your 7 as well. I don't really want to count the outs, I don't think it will be profitable to call here.Thoughts?EDIT: I read the post through (which I didn't do good enough the first time) there are now 7 bets in the pot... But I still think that folding right here might be OK. Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 After you've repeatedly beat up on this rock, what do you think he's leading this dry flop with?Yes he's a rock, a yes, in an isolated situation the best play here would probably be to raise. But poker isn't played each hand in isolation. You should occassionally pass up on profitable situations like this so that you can easily take advantage of them in the future. You don't want to wear this play out. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Folding is fine.I'm just saying I probably look him up.It's worth the BB for me to see how he played it. Link to post Share on other sites
JaysonWeber 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Folding is fine.I'm just saying I probably look him up.It's worth the BB for me to see how he played it.You're under the impression that this guy isn't going to bet again on the river? Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 You're under the impression that this guy isn't going to bet again on the river?Oh you meant fold the turn?Getting 7 to 1 with 6 outs and the expectation of a bet on the river if he hit any of them as they're not particularly scary? Link to post Share on other sites
Abbaddabba 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 You're not losing those 2 big bets in their entirety. There's some value in calling... just arguably not 2 big bets worth. Your hand may improve, and there is a remote chance that you're leading.If you value the information at 1 big bet, calling becomes a lot easier.Plus there's value in him thinking that you will show down marginal hands, so in the future you'll be able to push against him and know that if he pushes back, he generally has the goods.Im not sure that id ever value that sort of information at a full big bet though... You'll likely get that information for free shortly there after, when you DO have something to show down. Link to post Share on other sites
TheIceman05 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 I haven't read any responses, Aseem.These are the kind of poker decisions I find very interesting. The things we must ponder, of course, are two-fold:1) Are we ahead? Can we win the hand? Huh? and2) How does this hand lead to the play of future hands against this opponent? I think 2) is arguably significantly more important than 1). Consider that the decision regarding this pot isn't more than a bet, bet and a half either way. We've probably got like 6, 7 outs here most of the time, getting a decent price to chase. In the long run, our EV from this point on in this hand is pretty insignificant, no??So, what do you want from him? You wanna know what he's c/ring with? It'll cost you 2 bets to look him up with just a seven. He'llknow you're looking him up with mediocre hands, and getting aggressive with them on the first two streets. But he'll know you've probably got a little something when you're coming after him, and that you're willing to show it down against him. This is super valuable.If you muck the turn, he'll be operating under the assumption that your flop/turn aggression is just crap, and it could get a lot tougher to play against him assuming he makes ANY adjustments at all. You don't want him thinking he can get away with taking pots away from youI say look him up. Sorry if the analysis is spotty. I'm tired and drunk.Cheers,Ice Link to post Share on other sites
Abbaddabba 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 If you muck the turn, he'll be operating under the assumption that your flop/turn aggression is just crap, and it could get a lot tougher to play against him assuming he makes ANY adjustments at all. You don't want him thinking he can get away with taking pots away from youIsn't this alright though?I mean, so long as we adjust to compensate for his new information and show down our mid-strength hands from that point on, we're going to have him making moves with marginal hands that pay us off.edit:i can see there being a difficulty in figuring out whether he actually uses that information... which is why you'd have to show a mid strength hand down shortly after - hopefully with stronger hands than second pair. Link to post Share on other sites
dublin 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Perhaps I am too passive but I don't think there is a real benefit to looking him up. I don't see how paying him off could help you in the long run. Link to post Share on other sites
TheIceman05 0 Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 I mean, so long as we adjust to compensate for his new information and show down our mid-strength hands from that point on, we're going to have him making moves with marginal hands that pay us off.Yeah, but now it's all murky and we're putting in third-and-fourth bets with top pair, etc etc...Wouldn't you just rather be able to win every pot when he whiffs the flop/turn uncontested? I'm much more inclined to let a player who WANTS to think I'm strong continue. Just as I'm more inclined to let a player who's sure I'm bluffing/weak keep believing that.Against a scared/rockish opponent (live, at least), I'll graciously show my top-pair when I knock him of a hand, and he'll be more inclined to think I've got the goods. Against a skeptic, I'll be sure to show down any and all successful bluffs so he'll keep coming after me with rags. Easier to take advantage of someone's natural tendencies than to change themIce Link to post Share on other sites
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