question about a hand

[HurricaneKyle 0]

Question for all those who advocate a smooth call. Does villian fold to a raise if he has an ace? I don't think so, how great is it if he does call and then proceeds to make a smaller two pair or if the board pairs the bottom card giving him Aces up with a King kicker? Then you are taking all or an even bigger chunk of his money by playing the hand fast on the flop.He might be LAG, but there is no guarentee that he leads out on the Turn. Calling on the flop should send warning bells to him because it looks stronger than raising.

[NoSup4U 0]

Wow, apparently I've missed a good thread here. My comments:- Seems like a few people have said: This is a cash game not a tournament, so raise the flop and take it down there. I think thats backwards. Its a cash game, so maximize expected value. - Lots of people have said: You only have two pair, thats not that strong of a hand. Well, thats fine if your two pair is 85 and someone with A8 can spike an A to have a higher two pair. But the OP has AK. It isn't like this two pair can be counterfeited in some way. - Also, some people have said: Well, what if he has an A? He won't fold and you'll get him to call your flop raise. Well, if he has an A, then what is bad about smooth calling? All he can do is improve to a worse 2 pair than you have, and he'll call your raise later anyway with that A even unimproved.There is just nothing to be worried about. At worst, he's drawing to 4 outs. AT WORST! So lets do some quick math.Assuming you have $160 left.Assuming you'll just give him one free card and pop him on the turn.Assuming you expect him to bet at least $20.Remember, at best he has an 8% chance to hit here, so 1/12 times. So one time you will lose $160, and 11 times you will make $20, or $220. And thats worst case there. This example doesn't take into account times when he makes a worse two pair and is willing to pay you off even more...I just cannot see the argument here for taking the pot down on the flop, other than the loss aversion phenomenon. Mark

[pmc 0]

i can tell hurricane has some playing experience. slow playing is called a fancy play. mike caro said fancy plays cost u money in the long run. i learned that from him ten years ago. i quickly found out he was right and never waivered from that rule. how many times do u see someone flop the nuts or a strong hand and so does his opponent? they both slow play each other and then on the turn, a bet and a smooth call and then a scary card comes on the river and hand cuffs the two of them into checking. it could have all been settled on the flop if someone bet strong or raised strong and then all the money gets in the pot on the flop. hurricane's last blog is absolutely real world right. people dont put u on a strong hand when u raise on the flop. the sucker might just go off for all his chips with a weak ace. besides, hasnt anyone ever heard of making someone pay for the draw? i keep coming back here because u guys have it all ass backwards and i will never back down on a subject where i know i'm right. i hope the silent readers who r trying to learn r listening to me because the smooth call advice is terrible. the smooth call in that spot is bad buisness. i dont care about his 4 outs and how much of a dog he is. i heard yur hero danny boy say its all 50/50 on the flop. of course its just a joke but theres a twisted truth to that statement. u would only understand that if u been playing a lot of years and putting in a lot of hours. winning a small pot is always better than getting punched in yur guts for a big pot. winning keeps u focused, intimidates yur opponents and most importantly......and heres a main factor u guys never talk about......keeps u off tilt

[HurricaneKyle 0]

I think people are trying to plan on how they can make a big pot instead of getting the most information out of villain. Big pots are often unplanned, they just develop naturally, oftentimes when you least expect it. I don't advocate a big raise at all, you definitely want some action here with the best possible two pair. Hell, you can even make the minimum raise. If he folds then it isn't likely that we were going to win much if any more money on the turn. Think about it from villain's point of view. You know you are perceived as a really loose-action player, you are out of position with two undercards and a gutshot,your bet was called on the flop. How could villain honestly believe there is a chance of hero folding on the turn when he called on the flop?Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't see how its very likely that he leads out with any kind of bet here. Most likely villain checks the turn, hero makes a relatively small bet. Villain likely folds here. This scenario is far more likely than some of you think. The rate of how much more you might win should he call your raise will also exceed how much you might lose if you smoothcall.

[Captain_Walt 0]

"how many times do u see someone flop the nuts or a strong hand and so does his opponent? they both slow play each other and then on the turn, a bet and a smooth call and then a scary card comes on the river and hand cuffs the two of them into checking. it could have all been settled on the flop if someone bet strong or raised strong and then all the money gets in the pot on the flop. "Wow I will never slowplay again, someone else might have the nuts and I might have the nuts and we might split a smaller rather than a larger part. This is pretty much the underlying theme of the OP's post.

good luck to u all and play yur hands the way u see fit. i'm out of here never to return. thanks for the converstaions

Doubled your post count since that post.....whatever you say Tritz.

[Davin 0]

I think people are trying to plan on how they can make a big pot instead of getting the most information out of villain. Big pots are often unplanned, they just develop naturally, oftentimes when you least expect it. I don't advocate a big raise at all, you definitely want some action here with the best possible two pair. Hell, you can even make the minimum raise. If he folds then it isn't likely that we were going to win much if any more money on the turn. Think about it from villain's point of view. You know you are perceived as a really loose-action player, you are out of position with two undercards and a gutshot,your bet was called on the flop. How could villain honestly believe there is a chance of hero folding on the turn when he called on the flop?Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't see how its very likely that he leads out with any kind of bet here. Most likely villain checks the turn, hero makes a relatively small bet. Villain likely folds here. This scenario is far more likely than some of you think. The rate of how much more you might win should he call your raise will also exceed how much you might lose if you smoothcall.

this is a valid point.however, i still feel lags will stab again bc of what they might put us on. i think he would take our call on the flop is more fearful than anything else. why would we relinquish the lead(after taking it pf) after we make our hand?if i were lag, i would stab again bc i would put our hero on a pp pf (due to the reraise) and hope that the pp is queens or lower. the pot is just too tempting to not stab again. for lag players, they tend to get rushes off of bluffing players off hands, not winning with quality hands.if, however, i were the lag and had a naked ace and were raised on the flop, i most likely will give credit to our raiser for a big hand. and since im oop, i cannot call this flop raise. therefor, our hero loses another bet from an ace on the turn. lags are aggressive, not stupidi also think that our hero can get away w/ top two on this turn. our villain raised pf and continued to bet on the flop. when the q hit, it not only brought a broadway straight, but also another possibility for a set (qq being a likely hand). after our opponents reraise on the turn, we know he's strong (since we were strong as well waiting for the turn to raise). what possible hands could he hold:a-x: unlikely considering the strength of his reraiseak: i feel he would play the same wayaq: possible, but also unlikely since he most likely would just call our raise (or go all-in if he feels that he's ahead)aa: possible. he did raise pf and lead the flopkk: same as aaqq: most probable. he did raise pf, and since we have no queens in our hand, this is the most possible ppj10: not obvious. played badly oop pf and flop, but it is the current nuts and possible as well.so we're beating 1 hand, splitting w/ another, and losing to 4 others. i feel that if op took the time to think things through, he may have been able to get away from this hand. lag sometimes wake up to real hands as well

[iggymcfly 0]

I think people are trying to plan on how they can make a big pot instead of getting the most information out of villain. Big pots are often unplanned, they just develop naturally, oftentimes when you least expect it. I don't advocate a big raise at all, you definitely want some action here with the best possible two pair. Hell, you can even make the minimum raise. If he folds then it isn't likely that we were going to win much if any more money on the turn. Think about it from villain's point of view. You know you are perceived as a really loose-action player, you are out of position with two undercards and a gutshot,your bet was called on the flop. How could villain honestly believe there is a chance of hero folding on the turn when he called on the flop?Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't see how its very likely that he leads out with any kind of bet here. Most likely villain checks the turn, hero makes a relatively small bet. Villain likely folds here. This scenario is far more likely than some of you think. The rate of how much more you might win should he call your raise will also exceed how much you might lose if you smoothcall.

The point is that a lot of times, players like "villain" don't think clearly. That's why they're screwing around in a NL 100 game. They think that if they just keep pushing, they can make somebody back off no matter what. Also, a lot of times, they have no draw whatsoever. I've had about three times lately where somebody's bet on every street in a similar situation and had absolutely nothing; no pair and no draw.Smoothcalling isn't always the right play, but if you play any kind of a weak-tight game, it's the best way to get him to keep betting. Now if he knows that you'll come over the top of him with no pair sometimes, (i.e. if you've recently showed a bluff), then you can raise him here and try to get him to go for a reraise. However, under normal circumstances in a NL 100 game, the best play here is to smooth-call and wait for a bet on the turn. If the player is truly as loose-aggressive as many that I've seen on PP, he'll bet that turn card about 90% of the time.And back on pmc, "Mike Caro told you don't make fancy plays"? Are you kidding me? That's your logic? That might be the dumbest thing I've heard yet. If I were to guess, I'd say you're completely misapplying what he said. He was probably talking about how at a live game that you're going to sit at for a few hours, you don't want to "scare the fish" and get them out of a happy, gambling mood. However, if you're playing a 3-handed game online where you might bust your opponent the next hand, that concern is completely irrelevant.

[pmc 0]

u know whats really funny? u guys go through this hand like u know the sucker is on the draw or bluffing. in the heat of battle, yur not sure what the hell the sucker has. i say raise and raise strong. thats real world advice. keep it simple. hurricane proves himself to be a genius more and more. the likely scenario is the sucker checks the turn, hero bets, sucker folds. i said that in an earlier post too. my way, theres a good chance he will call the big raise to see the turn because the sucker invested money on the flop with a lead out bet. only sophisticated players can bet a flop on a draw, get raised big and then fold. hurricane is right, big pots more often than not just happen, they dont get created. i ALWAYS bet the nuts or raise with the nuts and u would be surprised how often u get raised or reraised back. now yur big pot happens. i know for a fact that all u smooth call advocates have not been playing long. i dont care if i sound insulting. i'm sticking up for the silent readers who r trying to improve theyre game. i will never leave this post.

[Davin 0]

u know whats really funny? u guys go through this hand like u know the sucker is on the draw or bluffing. in the heat of battle, yur not sure what the hell the sucker has. i say raise and raise strong. thats real world advice. keep it simple. hurricane proves himself to be a genius more and more. the likely scenario is the sucker checks the turn, hero bets, sucker folds. i said that in an earlier post too. my way, theres a good chance he will call the big raise to see the turn because the sucker invested money on the flop with a lead out bet. only sophisticated players can bet a flop on a draw, get raised big and then fold. hurricane is right, big pots more often than not just happen, they dont get created. i ALWAYS bet the nuts or raise with the nuts and u would be surprised how often u get raised or reraised back. now yur big pot happens. i know for a fact that all u smooth call advocates have not been playing long. i dont care if i sound insulting. i'm sticking up for the silent readers who r trying to improve theyre game. i will never leave this post.

im sorry, but your post is full of contradictions.you say your "sucker" wont fold to a big flop raise bc he has invested money already in this hand, yet just 2 lines prior, you say that this same "sucker" will c/f the turn on the same pot. your first description lends the "sucker" as extremely loose. your second description lends him to be weak tight. which one is it?hurricanekyle provides a lot to this forum by not generalizing his opponents as simple mindless idiots and by backing up his viewpoint with solid reasoning, good examples, and strong counterargumentsyour style is to beat a dead horseif anything, the "silent readers" are listening to him, not you. you speak of sophistication in your post, yet it's apparent that you completely lack the comprehension of the word

[pmc 0]

good, i hope the silent readers r listening to hurricane. u guys read too many books. loose agressive and weak tight etc etc. i already told u guys that yur not playing against robots. a person can be loose for one hour and then slow down to tight for the next hour. so what is he? in yur mind, he'll always be a lag. i pay attention to whats going on because i play live games. u guys play the internet and when yur not involved in a hand, yur watching t.v. or looking up something on the net. theres only 2 kinds of players. its either yur a sucker or yur playing well, and ive seen supposed suckers ram and jam and play bad and then all of a sudden tighten up and play well. u say i contradict myself about the suckers moves on the flop as opposed to the turn. there u go again with yur generalizations of players. u think that a supposed lag is going to fall into a given pattern where in the real world, they can do just what i said. they go from hot on the flop to cold on the turn and then yur smooth call trap gets foiled. if the guy is such a lag, then why dont u raise him on the flop since he is so loose? wont u make more money like that in the long run? u guys just want to argue. when i first read the heroes post when it first came out, right when he said about the sucker betting into the hero on the flop, the first thing i said to myself was, "ok, now u raise him". thats years of experience talking. any other play from there is gay. if the hero said he folded to the guys bet on the flop because he read the sucker for a set, believe it or not......believe it or not.... i would like the heroes fold better than the smooth call. i know i'm going to get a bunch of crap from that statement but i certainly dont expect u guys to understand it. maybe hurricane will understand it. smooth call is a terrible play. day 1 rookie mistake all the way

[iggymcfly 0]

It's a THREE HANDED GAME against a VERY LOOSE PLAYER.I'm not saying that you should always check the nuts or consistently smooth call or anything like that. I consistently raise and reraise big hands when I think there's a decent chance my opponent has something.However, in this particular case, the player (you know the one that had been playing hands with this guy and didn't read about it on the internet), thought his opponent was likely to bet the flop and the turn with any holding, and would slow down if he didn't have anything.Given that he hit the flop about as solidly as he possibly could, and that there weren't any good draws out there, it makes good sense in this ONE EXCEPTIONAL CASE to smooth-call.I never said that I smooth call with aces or kings (never do, unless I'm in early position and am reasonably certain I'll get a raise I can reraise), and I never said I routinely smooth-call the nuts.I just said that playing against someone who's playing loose for an online low-stakes three handed game (which basically by definition means he'll bet two streets with nothing), that a smooth-call is a good play in a situation where you're unlikely to get caught.

[TeeSludge 0]

I agree with Davin, Chief and Aseem on this one. I see the logic behind the flop raise but I feel that for the reasons already noted that a call is a +EV play. I refuse to believe that pmc is older than 17.

[iggymcfly 0]

I refuse to believe that pmc is older than 17.

Good point. What kind of serious, successful player would keep spewing out stuff like :

day 1 rookie mistake all the way

I was so busy trying to explain his poker errors to him that I completely ignored the fact that he talks like a teenage gimmick poster who's never been to a real casino."Giving your opponent the death stare" to make him fold when you have two pair.Give me a friggin break.

[HurricaneKyle 0]

For all those who advocate slowplaying top 2, check out this hand I just played.I have J8 in the BB. check to the flop. Flop is J84 with two hearts.I bet out the size of the pot.LP dudewho was very aggressive mini-raises. Instead of slowplaying, I raised him the size of the pot.He moved all in with top pair and a flush draw.Turn paired the Jack, giving me the nut full house. He is drawing dead to another 8. He misses and I take all his money.Granted all the money probably would have gone in on the turn in this case. If I planned on trapping him at the turn and the board blanked like it normally would, then I missed a golden opportunity to win a big pot by playing the hand slow.However by playing top two pair very fast, I won a really big pot with J8 of all hands.

[pmc 0]

yeah right, i strated out playin 2/4 and worked up to 40/80 in a 3 year process. i make mistakes all the time. i get outplayed all the time but i do my share of outplaying too. who cares, as long as i walk away with the money in the long run. i play one of the toughest 15/30 game in the bay area. its not the stakes that make it tough, its the players. if it werent for a couple of suckers who freguent the game, it would be next to impossible to beat. when the suckers arent around, the blinds get chopped frequently or its heads up with a lot of mucking on the turn. these r the kind of games i beat in the long run and i do it because i like the challenge. i play abc poker all the time. that way, i always know where i'm at. thats why i say raise that flop. u always know where yur at and also, it opens the possibility of creating a big pot or the possibility of laying down top 2 if u face a reraise and something doesnt seem right. yeah, thats right, lay it down if something doesnt seem right. the big lay down that many people cant make. good players will call someone down with pocket kk if they feel the other guy has pocket aces and not raise with kk. but the next level is to fold those pocket kk on the flop if u feel yur up against pocket aces. thats what strong players do. listen to yur read and execute, not die with the read. i'm not an idiot that pays someone off to the river and then says, "i knew u had that" just like i'm not the kind of idiot that invites a bad beat that could ultimately lead to me playing bad and the sucker playing good all because i smooth called and let him hit broadway. u guys dont see the big picture. i dont care if its short handed, ten handed, limit or no limit, raise that pot and stop screwing around. you'll sleep better at night. i walk away from games 95% of the time feeling good no matter how much money i lose because i know i did the right things. theres more e.v. in that in the long run but u guys wouldnt know that from yur lack of experience. good luck

[Herr Baader 0]

I refuse to believe that pmc is older than 17.

Good point. What kind of serious, successful player would keep spewing out stuff like :

day 1 rookie mistake all the way

I was so busy trying to explain his poker errors to him that I completely ignored the fact that he talks like a teenage gimmick poster who's never been to a real casino."Giving your opponent the death stare" to make him fold when you have two pair.Give me a friggin break.

Actually, I find the death stare to be one of the most potent weapons in my arsenal. When utilized correctly, I'd put it right up there with the debilitating tongue loll (used expertly, though excessively, by x22) and the withering grin.

[DrZebra 0]

as interesting as your life story is...it makes sense now that you say you are a structure player. a structure player would raise that flop (and should 100% of the time if it were a structure game.)unfortunately it's not as correct in NL.and to the guy comparing the hand to his J8 hand...it is totally different. what if the turn were an A, K, or Q. is J8 still good? this possibility is moot when top two is AK.

[pmc 0]

well played hurricane. u didnt screw around and the big pot got created right there on the flop the way it should have happened. the only thing i hate about it is now the dummies in here r going to get educated. not everyone here is a dummy but theres 3 or 4 of them here giving me theyre words of wisdom. washington, i used to play that lame 10/20 at la center. looking back on that game, it was an easy one compared to the games i play in now. these asians r tricky over here. and from what i hear, theyre even more of a nightmare down south at the commerce. i played with some LA players in vegas. they play awesome. they never miss a bet and constantly keep the pressure on u. they never slow play unless its the mortal nuts on the flop but even so, theyre apt to play the mortal nuts strong because u as the opponent doesnt see it coming. top 2 is barely considered a strong hand. its a long way to that river. raise that top 2 strong!!!

[HurricaneKyle 0]

it is totally different. what if the turn were an A, K, or Q. is J8 still good? this possibility is moot when top two is AK.

Which is exactly the reason I got all my money in right there on the flop. I hate having to outguess myself. If you slowplay AK on that flop, a 10,J or Q could be a card that forces you to hit the breaks and could minimize how much you win when you are ahead. All the more reason to get as much money in on the flop if the other guy says he wants to cooperate.

[Captain_Walt 0]

Hurricane, the major difference is there is a flush draw present. In this situation there is also a open ended straight draw out there too, where there are many legitimate hands for us to be scared of and want to raise 10,9 , A-K-Q /J gives our Hero outs to a better two pair, outs a runner runner straight draw and outs to the flush draw. Every two pair situation isn't like every other and doesn't need to be played the same in all situations. I think you made the correct play given your two pair and the board, but I don't think the same can be said for the OP's situation.

good luck to u all and play yur hands the way u see fit. i'm out of here never to return. thanks for the converstaions

Going to keep quoting this until you leave or respond to it.

[DrZebra 0]

good luck to u all and play yur hands the way u see fit. i'm out of here never to return. thanks for the converstaions

[HurricaneKyle 0]

Walt- you are correct in that the texture was different. My point was that if the opportunity arises to play a big pot and you have a big hand, take it and don't play it slow because the turn could hurt your momentum.On the AK hand that was being originally discussed, against a weak tight player I'd slowplay because I don't have to worry about JT and QJ. You can be quite certain he has another ace and I can pop him on the turn.Against a loose aggressive player, you have to make him define the hand on the flop. He can have any two cards. He might be drawing dead, but he often will have a hand with some kind of out. If you play it fast, he'll give you that information thus making the hand much easier to play on the Turn and the River. If you smoothcall, accept the reality that he can break you with the next card and you will never know it because you failed to raise him on the flop. If a bad card comes that gives him the best hand, you will likely pay him off because he is crazy. That is dangerous, and I've already shown that its quite possible that he gives you no further action if he was just taking a stab at the flop. If he has an ace, he will still call your raise. Most players envision stronger hands raising them on the turn than on the flop, which is why this is a good reverse-deceptive play.

[pmc 0]

• i havent left because i keep getting responses from the smooth callers. i'm not going to back down on this particular subject because i feel that i owe it to the silent readers who r trying to learn. i am positive that there r people with mixed feelings and i'm sure there r people who r leaning toward hurricane and my advice.  a novice can listen to reason or listen to experience. if one is smart, they will always listen to experience. the top players in the "big game" always "PUSH" on edges. if they feel they got the edge on the flop, they r going to get as much money as they can in there. u just cant take a chance, relying on someone, no matter how much of a sucker he is, to push a pot for u. u have to take the action to him. u can either push and win the small pot or push and let him pay to take the worst of it. its a win win situation. a smooth call gains him a free ride to beat u with no guarentee of him leading out on the turn. i repeat, u guys got it backwards. it must be due to some kind of fantasy of wanting to be a hero. personally, when i see a person make a bad play like that, i instantly categorize him as not such a good player, a sucker. good players might go on tilt, they might push too hard in bad spots, they might make some bad pre flop calls but a good player never lets some one skate for free against a vunerable hand.

[Captain_Walt 0]

I was hoping for option A) leaving over option B) responding, but no such luck.Every silent reader out there thanks for your entertainment value if nothing else.

[Guest]

PMC - Not that it matters but I agree with a lot of what you say. It is quotes like this: " i dont think that real players go to chat rooms and discuss poker. real players r busy playing"that partially keeps you from getting any respect. If your such a real player you spend a lot of time posting here. I dont believe there is an exact answer to this question. Poker is a game of situations not hands IMHO, and each person will react and read things differently live and in a internet game. I realize there are proper winning techniques and proper ways each person believes to get the most out of each hand. This is the kind of hand if you have a good read you lay it down and don't lose all of your money, not to say I would have laid it down. I would have rasied after the flop to protect my two pair most likely, but again I was not in this exact situation so an exact answer is not possible from me......_______________________________________________Yimmet @ Bodog | Poker Stars | Ultimate Bet