tp vs. pfr who never raises

[screech 0]

UTG had not raised yet PF. His stats were 80/0/0.51 over 46 hands.Button was 39/4/1.57 after 46 hands.Table was loose. Lots of people cold calling PF raises.Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converterPreflop: screech is MP2 with [Qc], [Jc]. UTG raises.Flop: (7.50 SB) [6c], [Qd], [4h] (3 players)UTG betsGiven the table conditions, I felt my call was OK. I thought a lot more people would come along for the ride. On the flop, I really didn't know what was best. On the one hand, I felt I was behind to UTG. On the other hand, if I'm not behind to UTG, he probably has AK or an underpair. If it's AK, a raise won't protect my hand from overs. If it's an underpair, a raise will just scare him off. I felt I was drawing most of the time, but had outs to continue. Should I raise or call this flop? Why?

[akishore 0]

why aren't you calling...?you know you're behind, the pot isn't big enough to clean up the very few outs you have, but you should continue with a 5-outter.why is every decision a raise or a fold? i think this is a very clear call.that said, i detest your preflop cold-call, not only because you might be way behind to UTG, but because your relative position is horrendous.aseemedit: i'll elaborate. you're getting 8-to-1 right now, most likely good enough to call if you hit a jack or queen (implied odds). that said, if Button doesn't raise behind you and UTG leads out again on the turn, i fold any non-jack, non-queen, non-club.

[screech 0]

why aren't you calling...?

shit. I meant raise/call. Edit.

[screech 0]

that said, i detest your preflop cold-call, not only because you might be way behind to UTG, but because your relative position is horrendous.  

I don't think I take this into account nearly enough. Thanks.

[LaydownKing 0]

You can't assume that we are behind just because UTG's pfr is 0. 46 hands is a meaningless sample size.Still, fold preflop and call the flop.

[posoo 0]

Screech's analysis is usually spot-on. However, he made a big mistake in this hand, which Aseem was correct to point out.Calling a preflop raise is almost never correct if you are the first one into the pt after the raiser. If and when it IS correct, QJs is certainly not the hand to make it so.I honestly think that mastery of the bolded sentence is half of what separates winning and losing limit hold'em players.Blessings,Posoo

[screech 0]

You can't assume that we are behind just because UTG's pfr is 0

I'm not assuming it as much as I'm adding more weight than usual to it.

Calling a preflop raise is almost never correct if you are the first one into the pt after the raiser.

This again, is a good point, as it has to do with relative position. At the time, I was thinking that the loose table conditions would provide me with enough cold callers to add value to my hand. I was flawed, because as you and aseem pointed out, I did not take my relative position into account.Let's say there's a lot of cold-callers behind me. If I flop a gutshot, and the PF raiser bets out, I won't be able to profitably call, even though my immediate odds may justify it. If a flop a strong draw, the PF raiser will probably bet again, and I won't be able to trap the field with a c/r and get the most value out of my hand. Both of these problems don't exist when I'm on the PF raisers right, or have a few active opponents in between us.

[screech 0]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converterPreflop: screech is MP2 with [Qc], [Jc]. UTG raises.Flop: (7.50 SB) [6c], [Qd], [4h] (3 players)UTG bets, UTG calls, screech calls.Turn: (6.75 BB) [Ad] (3 players)UTG checks, screech checks, Button bets, UTG folds, screech calls.River: (8.75 BB) [Ks] (2 players)screech checks (planning to call a bet)Ok, besides the PF blunder, everything else look good?

[akishore 0]

yeah the rest looks fine without a read.aseem

[Briguy 0]

Does the button have a worse Q often enough to call the turn (and/or river)? His flop raise wasn't a free card play.

[akishore 0]

Does the button have a worse Q often enough to call the turn (and/or river)? His flop raise wasn't a free card play.

against a 37'er, yes.aseem