77 donkathon

[Sysvr4 0]

Long-time lurker here, though apparently I haven't learned much. I just had a very bad session on PS. Partly due to bad beats, partly due to hands like this where I'm pretty sure I donked it up.The thing is, I called 2-cold with 77 not once but twice PF. Obviously I was beat, but the only excuse I'll offer is that if I hit a set I'd have implied odds galore from 4 players. I'm pretty sure that's incorrect thinking tho, so somebody set me straight. Much appreciated,JeffPokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP2 with [7d], [7s]. 2 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.Flop: (16.50 SB) [8d], [Tc], [Jd] (4 players)BB bets, BB calls.Turn: (13.25 BB) [3h] (2 players)BB bets, BB calls.River: (21.25 BB) [3s] (2 players)BB checks, CO bets, BB calls.Final Pot: 23.25 BB

[speedz99 145]

I have the same problem with calling 2 cold with small and medium pairs.I think you need to fold the flop immediately. What could you be looking for? A 7 is no good because you lose to a straight or overset.A 9 might might help because you probably lose to a higher straight.Either way, that flush draw could kill you.

[GodOfEntropy 0]

I think calling 2-cold with a small to mid PP from late position and in a multiway pot is fine, but that flop is terrible for your 7's - muck them as you have many reasons to fold.

[akishore 0]

cold-calling two with pocket pairs is fine (implied odds), but it's not fine when you're to the direct left of the raiser and the whole table is left to act behind you.in general, you always want to have good relative position before cold-calling. that is, you want to be as far to the right of the raiser as you can.the reason is because your postflop options are the best in that case. you can bet knowing that the raiser will raise, and this protects your hand against the rest of the field. you can also checkraise effectively (or raise if you're last to act) since everyone behind the raiser will get trapped for a bet before you raise.all in all, your position sucks, so cold-calling 77 there is bad. also add the possibilty of what sometimes happens (as did here) where someone reraises/caps behind you, and that's another reason why cold-calling with 77 there is bad. you have the whole table to act behind you.and the flop call was bad...aseem

[Sysvr4 0]

all in all, your position sucks, so cold-calling 77 there is bad.

So in the spirit of learning so I don't repeat mistakes, do I then always fold a middle pair in this relative position? This hand obviously didn't work out at all, but I'm more concerned with the underlying lesson... just want to clarify what exactly that is

and the flop call was bad...

Yeah, I'd give my reasons for it but they're all wrong in retrospect.Jeff

[KDawgCometh 2]

three bet PF to isolate the PFR, fold the flop

[akishore 0]

from SSHE:"You should cold-call a raise only rarely, especially if you are the first to do so. For instance, we recommend cold-calling a raise in a tight game with only AQs, AJs, and KQs (also sometimes medium and small pocket pairs and suited connectors when three or more players have already entered the pot). Every other hand you play against a raise you should usually reraise."notice the "especially if you are the first to do so".hands you're cold-calling with are ones that do best multiway, so you want to know for certain that the pot will be multiway before you committ your chips.also beware of people to act behind you. the more, the worse, since they could reraise.finally, relative position and absolute position are both important.let's take a few examples:1. UTG raises, we have 55 next to act. fold. relative position sucks, but so does absolute position. we also have the whole table to act. this is like your hand.2. UTG raises, three cold-callers, we call in the CO with 22 or 87s, etc. great position both absolute and relative, and only three players to act behind us, and the pot is definitely multiway. that last part (multiway) is especially attractive... even if a player behind us three-bets and it gets capped, it's not that bad at all since the pot will be five-way or six-way and there is a BUNCH of dead money in the pot.3. three limpers, CO raises, you're on the button with 22. this is okay to call. although your relative position is terrible, your absolute position and the great multiway nature of this pot is too good to pass up.4. you limp UTG with 22, four others limp, the SB raises, the BB three-bets. your hand is again good enough to cold-call two more since the pot will almost always be seven-way. again, your relative position sucks, and your absolute position is pretty bad, too, but all the dead money in here and the great multiway pot is attractive. if only one other guy had limped, this would be a clear fold after SB raised and BB three-bet. if two other guys limped, the line is closer. with four, it's too good to pass up.5. two limpers, you limp in MP with T9s, next guy raises, button three-bets, BB and all limpers call. you HAVE to call here. same reasoning as #4, but your relative position is great here.by the way, you should read "small stakes hold 'em" by ed miller (2+2 publishing) if you haven't. it's really the bible for low limit. keep posting hands, too.good luck,aseem

[Sysvr4 0]

Thanks all, I appreciate the examples and the help. Btw, I do have SSHE just haven't finished it yet. I'll move that up a notch on the priority list. Thanks again,Jeff

[Actuary 3]

to echo others...the pf calls sucks because you do not know whether it's gonig to be multi-way or not.The implied odds of which you speak, exist only if you have a multi-way pot.As it ended up , you probabily had odds...4 SB's for a 7:1 shot at the set12 SB's already in pot...16 more SB will not be too difficult to extract...now someone else can tell me how likely it is the a set of 7's wins.fold the flop.

[akishore 0]

if you're playing your pocket pair ONLY for set value(that is, you're dropping it on any flop that doesn't give you a set unless you're specifically getting around 20-to-1 and are sure you'll only put in one bet to do so [i.e. you'll be closing the action, for example])you should aim for 10-to-1 or 11-to-1 implied odds since you'll hit about 1/9 times but you will also sometimes hit and still lose.just an arbitrary number to throw out there. not really useful to know since you'll usually have those odds plus overlay if you play them correctly pre-flop (i.e. don't cold-call first to act after a raiser, etc.).aseem

[Actuary 3]

not to be picky..you're 7.5:1 to hit your set or quads on the flop

[TheIceman05 0]

not to be picky..you're 7.5:1 to hit your set or quads on the flop

You sure about this?