2 all in - action to you....

[Elpedro 0]

Last night I played a hand then argued with a guy for an hour about his play - looking for some other opinions:-It was 3 handed at the time blinds were at a very managable level for the chip counts - all 3 of us were pretty much even.1. Player 1 on the button raises (standard raise)2. Action comes to me in the small blind - i have 99 - with the BB behind me who will call standard raises to see flops with anything and the original raiser (in my thought process anyway) making a standard button raise - I go All In3. The BB immediately calls (now with a quick call like this and the amount i've played with him I put him on AQ or higher)4. The button (original raiser) calls immediately as well5. We turn over the cards and it looks like this Button: JJ Me: 99 BB: AK I got lucky and hit a 9 on the river to win 95% of the chips-Analysis: 1. My All In is questionable because the blinds are managable (probably should have called or possibly re-raised to 3 times his raise)2. The AK is pretty automatic here - 3 handed it is a monster and most would make this call (because you don't assume the 3rd caller)3. I hate the call with the JJ - even though it's the best hand preflop - if it is folded here he will be heads up only a 2-1 chip dog - at best he's in a coin flip situation (even though he should be fearing AA, KK, QQ from the BB with the quick automatic call). If the BB folded, then the call would not be bad - but in that situation I feel throwing the Jacks away is an easy decision. (he is also not a player who figures out the price on his call - so it was not a mathamatical decision) In his shoes, I would think that my jacks were at best a 54% to win the pot - not enough to call a 3 way All In when you can fold and chip away after that hand.Any other thoughts?

[TheIceman05 0]

In his shoes, I would think that my jacks were at best a 54% to win the pot - not enough to call a 3 way All In when you can fold and chip away after that hand.Any other thoughts?

I guess I'm confused. He's getting 2-1 on his money, but he's better than a coinflip to win, and you say this is a bad call? "He's mathematically justified in calling, but BESIDES THAT, how can he call?"Like you said, it's 3-handed. If I had JJ, I likely would have played it just like that. There's too good of a chance that you're against AK and AQ, or TT and 99 or something like that. Sure, you're going to be against AA or KK or QQ sometimes, but, like you said, he figured to be best most of the time. (shrug) 3 handed, that's a tough laydown to make. There's such a wide range of hands that would come over the top, and a slightly narrower range that would call. I'd figure I'm against a pocket pair and two overs a big percentage of the time.He made the right read and called. What's wrong with NOT BELIEVING someone when he moves you in, and being correct?Ice

[DividedSky05 0]

I know it's easy to say this now when I know what happened, but with having even chip stacks, someone who comes over the top of a normal raise by that much like you did with 9-9, has a hand they want to protect like a middle pair. I probably would've put you on something like that or an A-K. This is a play influenced a lot by position. (1) Your re-raise was ok, though a bit much. You're taking the chance that you're ahead of the button and that the BB has a random hand without just seeing where they are. (2) A-K is just assuming that there's no K-K or A-A in the hand (I don't know I could've/would've made that assumption with someone left to speak with the non descript standard raise from the button.) and values the implied odds of two live cards to pair up. I don't think you should assume Queens or better with a "fast call", that's sometimes a false sign of strength designed to isolate and scare others out. (3) JJ probably assumed there was another PP involved but that is just far too big a laydown for Jacks three-handed when JJ could be so far ahead. I would've been worried with the J-J because the action turns it into a slightly-borderline hand since at best you're miraculously against two lower pairs and at worst you're dealing with an overpair or all three over cards. He got a scenario right in the middle. Under the shorthanded circumstances you can make a case for each play and attribute the A-K's call and partially the J-J's call to a bit of confidence.

[Elpedro 0]

You missed the part where I said he doesn't know the math. So 2-1 on his money actually means nothing to him.... So if you remove that logic from the argument then what are his reasons to call?1. would be he has the best hand (this is true, but if he simply makes the lay down he is not risking his chips at what is probably a coin flip - ie. he is probably against AK, AQ, KQ or something like that which would make him only a 54% favourite - or possibly a higher pair ((just as likely to be an underpair as well...)) - is this a good reason to call off all your money when you can fold and wait for a better spot? Like I said the blinds were very managable so it's not like he had to hit a hand in the next few minutes.2. He wants to race? If he wants to risk his win on a virtual coin flip, then he can rationalize that - but given the situation of the blinds and worst case scenario wouldn't you feel comfortable being down 2-1 in chip counts heads up vs. risking finishing 3rd on a coin flip?My main point is: Why risk it when it's VERY LIKELY that you're in a coin flip situation?The more I think about it, the more I think it's an tough - but proper fold.

[Elpedro 0]

Dividedsky wrote: I don't think you should assume Queens or better with a "fast call", that's sometimes a false sign of strength designed to isolate and scare others out.I agree with this except that it was a call for all his chips - So there was no protecting or scaring out of the hand because he knew that his cards would be turned face up either way.If he had quick called my 3x's raise that I suggested I probably should have done, then I think your point is correct. But it was for all his chips - no thought went into it from my play to his play... Obviously he knew what he was going to do regardless of my play.

[Dubey 1,035]

You missed the part where I said he doesn't know the math. So 2-1 on his money actually means nothing to him.... So if you remove that logic from the argument then what are his reasons to call?.

there is nothing mathematical about seeing a huge pot with 2 people in, and seeing a chance to win the tournament in one hand. You Say 2:1 pot odds, he sees the same thing but doesn't call it that. so, while the term 2:1 on his money might mean nothing to him, the basic concept still played into his decision.

[DividedSky05 0]

I agree with this except that it was a call for all his chips - So there was no protecting or scaring out of the hand because he knew that his cards would be turned face up either way.If he had quick called my 3x's raise that I suggested I probably should have done, then I think your point is correct. But it was for all his chips - no thought went into it from my play to his play... Obviously he knew what he was going to do regardless of my play.

I meant A-K's "quick call" was to deter the button from calling. Just because he made a standard raise doesn't mean he was in the hand to a showdown, and having someone come over the top of you and then having THAT move called immediately would make me think twice about calling with anything less than Jacks (that's why I called it a borderline hand in this situation in my opinion.) You're right, the button had to assume that he had to dodge some cards but coinflips are what win tournaments. I do agree that it was a slightly risky play given the circumstances but in the end it was a correct call regardless of the outcome. Can't fault that really.

[Guest]

Honestly, why push in there? Thats the play I dislike the most. Pockets 9's. That early, with the blinds where they are, your going to get called by something that your either a coinflip against or has you beat.

[Elpedro 0]

Zerospace wrote: Honestly, why push in there? Thats the play I dislike the most.I agree with that - and noted in the beginning that it was a questionable play given the information I had.... But the JJ play had all the information available for his move. If I had raised a proportionate amount and he moved all in over the top, then I wouldn't fault his play with the Jacks. But if a situation ever called to fold JJ, I would think that was it.What I'm trying to see is not whether the AK or 99 made good or bad plays, but whether the majority of people make that call with JJ and why or why not.

[Guest]

Zerospace wrote: Honestly, why push in there? Thats the play I dislike the most.I agree with that - and noted in the beginning that it was a questionable play given the information I had.... But the JJ play had all the information available for his move. If I had raised a proportionate amount and he moved all in over the top, then I wouldn't fault his play with the Jacks. But if a situation ever called to fold JJ, I would think that was it.What I'm trying to see is not whether the AK or 99 made good or bad plays, but whether the majority of people make that call with JJ and why or why not.

Tournament or cash game? Some of it is read dependent as well. I've pushed in that situation if I knew my opponent would call with two over cards. If its early in a tournament though; I probably reluctantly fold the jacks because you can find a better spot to put your money in. Same deal as the 9's, your either a coin flip or really behind; unless some donk is calling with AJ in that spot. Meh. Hard to say.

[CieloAzor 0]

There aren't many better spots to get your money in with jacks. He gave himself almost a 50% chance of winning a 3-way pot. Great equity there.Why's everybody so scared of racing around here?

[Elpedro 0]

CieloAzor wrote: Why's everybody so scared of racing around here?I don't think it's afraid of racing, but you need to pick your spots to race in. I don't think anyone who plays the game well is looking for coin flip situations to put all their chips at risk. If you can get good equity AND not risk your tournament life, then yes, go ahead and race. But if you can avoid it, you'd rather go in as a bigger favorite than that. At the same time, sometimes you are forced to race due to a call that you didn't expect or the tournament blind structure dictates it - that is why it's called gambling and is a very common part of poker. I just think that the more experience you have the more you avoid putting all your chips in as a slight favorite, you'd rather wait for you opponent to make a mistake when you're a larger favorite and then capitalize on it (and hope he doesn't hit....)