Qq Oop Against Tag

[Giggidy 0]

Villain was competant 19/17 reg over 250, his 3bet% when we first started was 3%, i had him on a couple of tables and we'd 3bet each other a couple of time on steals - by the time this hand came around, 3bet %age was 2%Thoughts on PF and bet sizing post flop appreciated - Post flop I was v.concerned of an overpair, but wasn't sure on bet sizing since the post was already large and only just overpot left behindFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($9.65)UTG ($36.80)MP ($4.55)CO ($25.00)Button ($28.80)Hero (SB) ($28.35)Preflop: Hero is SB with Q Q UTG raises to $0.85, 3 folds, Hero raises to $3.00, 1 fold, UTG raises to $9.25, Hero calls $6.25Flop: ($18.75) J 7 9 (2 players)Hero bets $15.00, UTG raises to $27.55 (All-In), Hero calls $4.10 (All-In)Turn: ($56.95) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)River: ($56.95) 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)Total pot: $56.95 | Rake: $2.80

[tskillz187 0]

That's a 4bet pf not a 3bet. I would think his range is really strong there, especially since you're UTG. If you think his range includes AK then shove, if you think it doesn't then fold pf. I think calling the 4bet pf is pretty bad though, you've put in 36% of your stack pf and are planning to fold if an A or K comes.

[Giggidy 0]

That's a 4bet pf not a 3bet. I would think his range is really strong there, especially since you're UTG. If you think his range includes AK then shove, if you think it doesn't then fold pf. I think calling the 4bet pf is pretty bad though, you've put in 36% of your stack pf and are planning to fold if an A or K comes.

I know that's a 4bet, just giving BG infoI put him on AK, KK and AA...possibly QQ at a stretch - I flatted as I thought I could maybe get away from the hand if a K or A fell on teh floop

[Sheiky 0]

I can't think of a hand that I would flat call PF in that spot.Against someone with those stats I think I would just fold PF, a competent player is going to realise that you're 3-bet from the SB against his UTG raise is very very strong, so when he 4-bets you his range is going to be even stronger.

[tskillz187 0]

Yeah I wasn't sure if you thought that was a 3bet. And I misspoke and said you were UTG. I suck at this thread. I still think preflop is push or fold, leaning towards fold.

[Giggidy 0]

I still think preflop is push or fold, leaning towards fold.

Yeh I agree now. He showed up with AAAs played how would you proceed on the flop? I was totally lost tbh, either way a c-bet commits us really (which backs up the push/fold)

[tskillz187 0]

On the flop that's an easy check/call all in or check/raise all in. You got the flop that had no A or K in it, time to get it in and hope he has AK. That J isn't a bad card for you, I think he rarely/never has JJ.

[Sheiky 0]

Yeh I agree now. He showed up with AAAs played how would you proceed on the flop? I was totally lost tbh, either way a c-bet commits us really (which backs up the push/fold)

Given how you played it PF, I think the flop play, though being interesting, doesn't matter a great deal. Given how big the pot is, you're very rarely going to get value from a bluff so it's basically just an operation of getting all the money in on the flop and seeing who has the best hand, whether that's checking or betting, I don't think they differ in EV that much.

[NoSup4U 0]

You should never call pf imo. Either fold or shove. If you put him on AA, KK, QQ, or AK, then fold pf as his range has you in bad shape. And if that is villain's 4betting range, then you should consider whether or not you should really be 3betting him with QQ. If he's that tight, do you really think he will call you 3bet with worse? If not, then you should be 3betting him with 72o, not QQ. I 3bet and shove over the 4bet vs any villain I would have decided to 3bet with QQ.Mark

[Sheiky 0]

You should never call pf imo. Either fold or shove. If you put him on AA, KK, QQ, or AK, then fold pf as his range has you in bad shape. And if that is villain's 4betting range, then you should consider whether or not you should really be 3betting him with QQ. If he's that tight, do you really think he will call you 3bet with worse? If not, then you should be 3betting him with 72o, not QQ. I 3bet and shove over the 4bet vs any villain I would have decided to 3bet with QQ.Mark

Just because his 4-betting range is the top 2% of hands doesn't mean he won't call with the other 8% of them which we have crushed. There are definitely a lot of spots where you shouldn't 3-bet fold stuff like this, but I'm not sure this is one of them as he's definitely not going to be 3-betting or folding his entire range and will call with worse.

[NoSup4U 0]

Just because his 4-betting range is the top 2% of hands doesn't mean he won't call with the other 8% of them which we have crushed. There are definitely a lot of spots where you shouldn't 3-bet fold stuff like this, but I'm not sure this is one of them as he's definitely not going to be 3-betting or folding his entire range and will call with worse.

Sure, I totally agree. What makes you think that he'll call with worse though? (I didn't see any mention of a read like that but if we think villain is someone who calls 3bets with marginal hands, never bluff 4bets, and 4bets all his monsters, then I could find a fold here. I would just need to know something about villain to think about folding pf. Also, how villain views us is important. If we're a super nit, then easy fold. If we're a lagtard, then easy shove/call)Mark

[Snamuh 0]

You should never call pf imo. Either fold or shove. If you put him on AA, KK, QQ, or AK, then fold pf as his range has you in bad shape. And if that is villain's 4betting range, then you should consider whether or not you should really be 3betting him with QQ. If he's that tight, do you really think he will call you 3bet with worse? If not, then you should be 3betting him with 72o, not QQ. I 3bet and shove over the 4bet vs any villain I would have decided to 3bet with QQ.Mark

100% this. There's nothing wrong with flatcalling QQ if you aren't comfortable stacking off vs villain preflop.

[Snamuh 0]

Just because his 4-betting range is the top 2% of hands doesn't mean he won't call with the other 8% of them which we have crushed. There are definitely a lot of spots where you shouldn't 3-bet fold stuff like this, but I'm not sure this is one of them as he's definitely not going to be 3-betting or folding his entire range and will call with worse.

I also agree with this, but I'd like to know if he defends 3bets with marginal hands. OP 3bet an UTG raiser from OOP which is an extremely strong line. If villain is going to call with AK/JJ/TT, etc, then it's fine but it depends on the opponent.

[Sheiky 0]

Sure, I totally agree. What makes you think that he'll call with worse though? (I didn't see any mention of a read like that but if we think villain is someone who calls 3bets with marginal hands, never bluff 4bets, and 4bets all his monsters, then I could find a fold here. I would just need to know something about villain to think about folding pf. Also, how villain views us is important. If we're a super nit, then easy fold. If we're a lagtard, then easy shove/call)Mark

From experience at $25NL I've seen exactly these players with TAG stats make a lot of iffy PF calls that you might not expect someone with those numbers to make, bad PF play like calling with KQs/AJ/22 in that spot is one of the biggest leaks I've noticed even from the seemingly good regulars. I could probably find you quite a few examples from my last 7k hands of almost this exact spot where they've called with worse.

[Deftones150 0]

From experience at $25NL I've seen exactly these players with TAG stats make a lot of iffy PF calls that you might not expect someone with those numbers to make, bad PF play like calling with KQs/AJ/22 in that spot is one of the biggest leaks I've noticed even from the seemingly good regulars. I could probably find you quite a few examples from my last 7k hands of almost this exact spot where they've called with worse.

I've seen and done that enough to attest to that. I run a 15/14 and I will occasionally call 3bets with marginal hands depending on how I view the villain.

[CanadianAce3 0]

You should never call pf imo. Either fold or shove. If you put him on AA, KK, QQ, or AK, then fold pf as his range has you in bad shape. And if that is villain's 4betting range, then you should consider whether or not you should really be 3betting him with QQ. If he's that tight, do you really think he will call you 3bet with worse? If not, then you should be 3betting him with 72o, not QQ. I 3bet and shove over the 4bet vs any villain I would have decided to 3bet with QQ.Mark

If you shove to the players 4-bet, he will likely call you preflop. Whereas if you decide to just flat call, and then shove on the flop you give yourself that extra chance to win the pot. In this hand the player had QQ preflop. If he flat calls and the flop comes A K 2, then its a lot easier for him to fold his hand. But if the flop comes the way it did he can shove on the flop, this way if he put the guy on a lower pp or AK they may fold here. The point im trying to make is that if your going to shove preflop anyway, whats the difference between shoving on the flop?

[NoSup4U 0]

If you shove to the players 4-bet, he will likely call you preflop. Whereas if you decide to just flat call, and then shove on the flop you give yourself that extra chance to win the pot. In this hand the player had QQ preflop. If he flat calls and the flop comes A K 2, then its a lot easier for him to fold his hand. But if the flop comes the way it did he can shove on the flop, this way if he put the guy on a lower pp or AK they may fold here. The point im trying to make is that if your going to shove preflop anyway, whats the difference between shoving on the flop?

If you put together a range of hands villain might have, you'll see why folding or shoving is better imo. You kind of answered the question when you talked about him having 'a lower pp' :)Mark