Should I Have Pushed This?

[scrapp 0]

For whatever reason my balls shrank when I saw the other low cards. A lot of my outs were gone but I was wondering if I should have raised this on third?BTW thanks for the responces on the other thread!PokerStars Game #15435885418: Razz Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/02/20 - 23:51:39 (ET)Table 'Icarus IV' 8-maxSeat 1: chipfarm420 ($19 in chips) Seat 2: scrappdogg13 ($22.60 in chips) Seat 3: angelcartuja ($2 in chips) Seat 4: bredemnn ($7.75 in chips) Seat 5: warp10NG ($24.55 in chips) Seat 6: zTROYz ($20.50 in chips) Seat 7: greyhound001 ($18.80 in chips) Seat 8: spooky1978 ($18.20 in chips) chipfarm420: posts the ante $0.05scrappdogg13: posts the ante $0.05angelcartuja: posts the ante $0.05bredemnn: posts the ante $0.05warp10NG: posts the ante $0.05zTROYz: posts the ante $0.05greyhound001: posts the ante $0.05spooky1978: posts the ante $0.05*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to chipfarm420 [Td]Dealt to scrappdogg13 [5s 3d 2h]Dealt to angelcartuja [4d]Dealt to bredemnn [8s]Dealt to warp10NG [6h]Dealt to zTROYz [Qh]Dealt to greyhound001 [Tc]Dealt to spooky1978 [7s]zTROYz: brings in for $0.25greyhound001: folds spooky1978: calls $0.25chipfarm420: folds scrappdogg13: calls $0.25angelcartuja: raises $0.25 to $0.50bredemnn: calls $0.50warp10NG: folds zTROYz: folds spooky1978: calls $0.25scrappdogg13: calls $0.25

[Cappy37 0]

Well...all 4 low cards on board are dead outs to you.... But I'd still definitely raise on 3rd. At the very least you'll give your self a big enough pot to see 5th no matter what you catch on 4th. You pretty much want as big a pot as possible when you have 3 cards to a 5 anyways.Not sure what you are really asking here.. If you aren't going to raise on 3rd with 235, what exactly do you raise on 3rd with?The annoying part is: you want to raise to build a pot + narrow the field. Raising at this limit will certainly build the pot, but it won't necessarily narrow the field. Regardless, you can't do much better than get money into the middle with a hand that strong, regardless of dead outs.Hands that solid are too few and far between: doing anything less than play them hardis pretty much a cardinal sin.

[Frez 0]

Not sure what you are really asking here.. If you aren't going to raise on 3rd with 235, what exactly do you raise on 3rd with?

The dead cards may have moved your hand from a 'great' hand to just a 'very good' hand, but we still raise with our good hands.

[HangukMiguk 8]

Yes, without question you should be raising your 3 card 5's on 3rd

[checkymcfold 0]

Yes, without question you should be capping your 3 card 5's on 3rd

[scrapp 0]

Thanks again guys for the help.I'm severely under-bankrolled for .50/1 razz but the games seem soft to me. I enjoy playing low limit HORSE tournaments and noticed most people are awful at it so I jumped into the cash games. The only stuff I've read on razz was in Super System 1. Any other books I should read?

[HangukMiguk 8]

Well, obviously.I didn't think I needed to say that, but yeah.

[HangukMiguk 8]

Thanks again guys for the help.I'm severely under-bankrolled for .50/1 razz but the games seem soft to me. I enjoy playing low limit HORSE tournaments and noticed most people are awful at it so I jumped into the cash games. The only stuff I've read on razz was in Super System 1. Any other books I should read?

I didn't read any book when I was learning Razz, I just picked up the vast majority of what I learned by playing and running hands through twodimes.If you want to read a book, Sklansky on Poker has a pretty authorirtative section on Razz.That said, my book will pretty much blow away every section ever written on Razz...when I finish.

[checkymcfold 0]

Well, obviously.I didn't think I needed to say that, but yeah.

yea, no offense meant. i knew you knew that--i just didn't want anyone to think that you should ever not cap 3 wheel cards on 3rd.

[Cappy37 0]

Thanks again guys for the help.I'm severely under-bankrolled for .50/1 razz but the games seem soft to me. I enjoy playing low limit HORSE tournaments and noticed most people are awful at it so I jumped into the cash games. The only stuff I've read on razz was in Super System 1. Any other books I should read?

F*ck books. You need poker *forums*. Books will tell you how to play against geezers and tourists at the brick and mortar. You learn how to play online Razz from... playing online razz, and posting hands on FCP/2+2/P5s/PHaus, etc... I cannot stress enough how important having all of those sites bookmarked is to your online success. Poker evolves, books fall behind. Books have to pander toward the lowest form of player: the beginner. This is why if, for example, you need o8b or razz help, the book will tell you how to minimalize losses, where Checky and Frez and Hang and the crew will teach you how to push edges. Profit does not come from betting the nuts. Profit comes from taking what isn't rightfully yours and taking control of hands.I was the "unluckiest" nit when i started playing o8b and razz... Then I learned how to be the Tazmanian Devil on the table in weak games, and TAG it up in more formidable settings. I'd still be whining about how I never win a pot with A2 if it wasn't for this forum, I swear.Think of it this way: in hold 'em tourneys, how often do you get *the* cards you want in the hole? How often do you *nail* that flop? It's second nature to maneuver in hold 'em, start envisioning how you view your razz/mixed game from there.

That said, my book will pretty much blow away every section ever written on Razz...when I finish.

I caught some previews on that *cough* other forum. Love it so far.

[HangukMiguk 8]

yea, no offense meant. i knew you knew that--i just didn't want anyone to think that you should ever not cap 3 wheel cards on 3rd.

I've actually went insofar to tell newcomers to be capping any 3 card 6 on 3rd too.Simplifies things to them. In all actuality, you're not going to run in to too many boards that would make this play unprofitable in the long term, so you'll see me doing this a lot..I don't know whether you'll agree with the above jamie, but these are my observations.Regardless of whether we agree on that, we do agree on this, and I'll reiterate this: If you aren't capping 3rd with 3 wheel cards, you're doing something terribly wrong.

[HangukMiguk 8]

I caught some previews on that *cough* other forum. Love it so far.

Sweet, that makes me feel happy in my pants. happy enough to work more on it.I wouldn't have done it though if bkice hadn't asked me to. Otherwise, everyone would've just waited till the book.

[Sheiky 0]

Just browsing the forum as i'm playing a HORSE tourney and stud games scare me and i want to ask; how do the dead cards affect the way you play this hand? I realise that you have less low cards to make your hand, but surely this affects everybody equaly so your relative hand value doesn't change?

[checkymcfold 0]

Just browsing the forum as i'm playing a HORSE tourney and stud games scare me and i want to ask; how do the dead cards affect the way you play this hand? I realise that you have less low cards to make your hand, but surely this affects everybody equaly so your relative hand value doesn't change?

WHICH dead cards there are matter, but not like a ton unless you see 4-5+ of them.for instance, a hand like a67 gains value vs 345 when lots of aces, sixes, and sevens are dead.

[HangukMiguk 8]

To elaborate on checky's point (as he was going in Razz), here's what i'm looking for in Stud:ex: you have three connectors. i am looking for the first two ranks above and below your cards, plus any cards that can pair me. of course, if the rank just above and below your cards is dead, then there's no point in even looking the ranks above and below that, and i would fold.ex: you have suited cards. you are obv looking for the same suit including pair cards. You're getting into very dangerous territory if 5 of your suit is out (not counting what is in your hand).the reason i'm counting pair cards too is for backdoor possibilties. reason being, you play three connectors, on 4th, you brick, you float to 5th to see if you improve, and on 5th, you pair. if you think two pair or better could win, but don't know how many cards could do that for you, you have no idea whether continuing would be a smart play or not.in stud8, you are looking at both the razz spectrum and the stud spectrum. in essence, in stud8, i like to keep track of every single up card, because you usually need to know every single card (twice as much as you do in either stud or razz).

[drcossack 0]

To further illustrate Hang's point:I have a bunch of HH's saved from tourneys I've played on Stars. Here's one from a $1.10 HORSE, which tells you what NOT to do (I like screwing around in the mixed $1's, which is why I played the hand to begin with):PokerStars Game #12671753314: Tournament #64089127, $1.00+$0.10 HORSE (7 Card Stud Limit) - Level IV (60/120) - 2007/10/16 - 22:29:14 (ET)Table '64089127 3' 8-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: drcossack (1421 in chips)Seat 2: Sisterfred (1136 in chips)Seat 3: nolimitsowja (1870 in chips)Seat 4: BucksIn06 (1039 in chips)Seat 5: jimmydrywall (2219 in chips) is sitting outSeat 6: swerve17can (2763 in chips)Seat 7: overriperc99 (1229 in chips)Seat 8: Niteowlaudio (2723 in chips)jimmydrywall: posts the ante 12swerve17can: posts the ante 12overriperc99: posts the ante 12Niteowlaudio: posts the ante 12drcossack: posts the ante 12Sisterfred: posts the ante 12nolimitsowja: posts the ante 12BucksIn06: posts the ante 12*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to drcossack [3c Ad 5c]Dealt to Sisterfred [2c]Dealt to nolimitsowja [8c]Dealt to BucksIn06 [Qd]Dealt to jimmydrywall [6s]Dealt to swerve17can [4h]Dealt to overriperc99 [2d]Dealt to Niteowlaudio [Kc]Sisterfred: brings in for 18nolimitsowja: foldsBucksIn06: calls 18jimmydrywall: foldsswerve17can: calls 18overriperc99: foldsNiteowlaudio: calls 18drcossack: calls 18*** 4th STREET ***Dealt to drcossack [3c Ad 5c] [Js]Dealt to Sisterfred [2c] [Jd]Dealt to BucksIn06 [Qd] [Ks]Dealt to swerve17can [4h] [9c]Dealt to Niteowlaudio [Kc] [8d]BucksIn06: checksswerve17can: checksNiteowlaudio: checksdrcossack: checksSisterfred: checks*** 5th STREET ***Dealt to drcossack [3c Ad 5c Js] [4c]Dealt to Sisterfred [2c Jd] [Ah]Dealt to BucksIn06 [Qd Ks] [Jh]Dealt to swerve17can [4h 9c] [7c]Dealt to Niteowlaudio [Kc 8d] [5s]Sisterfred: checksBucksIn06: bets 120swerve17can: calls 120Niteowlaudio: foldsdrcossack: calls 120Sisterfred: calls 120*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to drcossack [3c Ad 5c Js 4c] [7d]Dealt to Sisterfred [2c Jd Ah] [9s]Dealt to BucksIn06 [Qd Ks Jh] [2s]Dealt to swerve17can [4h 9c 7c] [4s]swerve17can: checksdrcossack: checksSisterfred: checksBucksIn06: checks*** RIVER ***Dealt to drcossack [3c Ad 5c Js 4c 7d] [9h]swerve17can: checksdrcossack: checksSisterfred: checksBucksIn06: checks*** SHOW DOWN ***swerve17can: shows [Ac 7h 4h 9c 7c 4s Jc] (two pair, Sevens and Fours)drcossack: mucks handSisterfred: mucks handBucksIn06: mucks handswerve17can collected 666 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 666 | Rake 0Seat 1: drcossack mucked [3c Ad 5c Js 4c 7d 9h]Seat 2: Sisterfred mucked [4d 3s 2c Jd Ah 9s Qc]Seat 3: nolimitsowja folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 4: BucksIn06 (button) mucked [9d 3d Qd Ks Jh 2s 2h]Seat 5: jimmydrywall folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 6: swerve17can showed [Ac 7h 4h 9c 7c 4s Jc] and won (666) with two pair, Sevens and FoursSeat 7: overriperc99 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 8: Niteowlaudio folded on the 5th StreetStud 8. Folding here is probably meh, but I don't like playing hands where I need 3 perfect cards for a scoop:PokerStars Game #12671861583: Tournament #64089127, $1.00+$0.10 HORSE (7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit) - Level V (80/160) - 2007/10/16 - 22:35:10 (ET)Table '64089127 3' 8-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: drcossack (1843 in chips)Seat 3: nolimitsowja (2376 in chips)Seat 4: BucksIn06 (585 in chips)Seat 5: jimmydrywall (2725 in chips)Seat 6: swerve17can (2953 in chips)Seat 7: overriperc99 (1711 in chips)Seat 8: Niteowlaudio (2207 in chips)jimmydrywall: posts the ante 16swerve17can: posts the ante 16overriperc99: posts the ante 16Niteowlaudio: posts the ante 16drcossack: posts the ante 16nolimitsowja: posts the ante 16BucksIn06: posts the ante 16*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to drcossack [Jh 2h 5h]Dealt to nolimitsowja [8d]Dealt to BucksIn06 [Th]Dealt to jimmydrywall [7c]Dealt to swerve17can [Qh]Dealt to overriperc99 [Js]Dealt to Niteowlaudio [Ts]drcossack: brings in for 24nolimitsowja: foldsBucksIn06: calls 24jimmydrywall: raises 56 to 80swerve17can: foldsoverriperc99: foldsNiteowlaudio: foldsdrcossack: foldsBucksIn06: calls 56*** 4th STREET ***Dealt to BucksIn06 [Th] [8c]Dealt to jimmydrywall [7c] [3c]BucksIn06: checksjimmydrywall: bets 80BucksIn06: calls 80*** 5th STREET ***Dealt to BucksIn06 [Th 8c] [4h]Dealt to jimmydrywall [7c 3c] [Kh]jimmydrywall: checksBucksIn06: checks*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to BucksIn06 [Th 8c 4h] [6h]Dealt to jimmydrywall [7c 3c Kh] [Kc]jimmydrywall: bets 160BucksIn06: calls 160*** RIVER ***jimmydrywall: bets 160BucksIn06: calls 160*** SHOW DOWN ***jimmydrywall: shows [8s 4c 7c 3c Kh Kc 2c] (HI: a flush, King high; LO: 8,7,4,3,2)BucksIn06: mucks handjimmydrywall collected 548 from potjimmydrywall collected 548 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 1096 | Rake 0Seat 1: drcossack folded on the 3rd StreetSeat 3: nolimitsowja folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 4: BucksIn06 (button) mucked [7s 9s Th 8c 4h 6h 9c]Seat 5: jimmydrywall showed [8s 4c 7c 3c Kh Kc 2c] and won (1096) with HI: a flush, King high; LO: 8,7,4,3,2Seat 6: swerve17can folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 7: overriperc99 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 8: Niteowlaudio folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Follow-up post coming, I have more HH's.

[drcossack 0]

Here's a hand you do NOT play on 3rd (Stud 8):PokerStars Game #12671975084: Tournament #64089127, $1.00+$0.10 HORSE (7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit) - Level V (80/160) - 2007/10/16 - 22:41:13 (ET)Table '64089127 3' 8-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: drcossack (2721 in chips)Seat 2: vanman715 (1068 in chips)Seat 3: nolimitsowja (2239 in chips)Seat 4: twj9ball (3079 in chips)Seat 5: jimmydrywall (7523 in chips)Seat 6: swerve17can (1905 in chips)Seat 8: Niteowlaudio (1644 in chips)jimmydrywall: posts the ante 16swerve17can: posts the ante 16Niteowlaudio: posts the ante 16drcossack: posts the ante 16vanman715: posts the ante 16nolimitsowja: posts the ante 16twj9ball: posts the ante 16*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to drcossack [9h Qc 9d]Dealt to vanman715 [5h]Dealt to nolimitsowja [Kh]Dealt to twj9ball [Tc]Dealt to jimmydrywall [7d]Dealt to swerve17can [Qs]Dealt to Niteowlaudio [5d]Niteowlaudio: brings in for 24drcossack: foldsvanman715: foldsnolimitsowja: raises 56 to 80twj9ball: foldsjimmydrywall: raises 80 to 160swerve17can: calls 160Niteowlaudio: calls 136nolimitsowja: calls 80*** 4th STREET ***Dealt to nolimitsowja [Kh] [Kc]Dealt to jimmydrywall [7d] [3d]Dealt to swerve17can [Qs] [Ac]Dealt to Niteowlaudio [5d] [Ah]nolimitsowja: bets 80jimmydrywall: calls 80swerve17can: calls 80Niteowlaudio: folds*** 5th STREET ***Dealt to nolimitsowja [Kh Kc] [3h]Dealt to jimmydrywall [7d 3d] [8d]Dealt to swerve17can [Qs Ac] [Td]nolimitsowja: bets 160jimmydrywall: raises 160 to 320swerve17can: foldsnolimitsowja: raises 160 to 480jimmydrywall: raises 160 to 640Betting is cappednolimitsowja: calls 160*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to nolimitsowja [Kh Kc 3h] [8h]Dealt to jimmydrywall [7d 3d 8d] [7h]nolimitsowja: checksjimmydrywall: bets 160nolimitsowja: calls 160*** RIVER ***nolimitsowja: checksjimmydrywall: bets 160nolimitsowja: calls 160*** SHOW DOWN ***jimmydrywall: shows [4c 2c 7d 3d 8d 7h 6h] (HI: a pair of Sevens; LO: 7,6,4,3,2)nolimitsowja: shows [Qd Kd Kh Kc 3h 8h 2d] (HI: three of a kind, Kings)nolimitsowja collected 1456 from potjimmydrywall collected 1456 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 2912 | Rake 0Seat 1: drcossack folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 2: vanman715 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 3: nolimitsowja showed [Qd Kd Kh Kc 3h 8h 2d] and won (1456) with HI: three of a kind, KingsSeat 4: twj9ball (button) folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 5: jimmydrywall showed [4c 2c 7d 3d 8d 7h 6h] and won (1456) with HI: a pair of Sevens; LO: 7,6,4,3,2Seat 6: swerve17can folded on the 5th StreetSeat 8: Niteowlaudio folded on the 4th StreetHere's a "connectors" hand (if you will) from a November Neg-O.PokerStars Game #13368273286: Tournament #62335509, $10+$1 HORSE (7 Card Stud Limit) - Level IV (60/120) - 2007/11/20 - 21:47:00 (ET)Table '62335509 4' 8-max Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: fitzinabox (3475 in chips)Seat 2: BogiePutt (3288 in chips)Seat 3: jawalives (1365 in chips)Seat 4: drcossack (2487 in chips)Seat 5: AAsnake88 (2241 in chips)Seat 6: armen13 (3207 in chips)Seat 7: BunnyRocks (4191 in chips)Seat 8: TwinsCubsFan (2846 in chips)jawalives: posts the ante 12drcossack: posts the ante 12AAsnake88: posts the ante 12armen13: posts the ante 12BunnyRocks: posts the ante 12TwinsCubsFan: posts the ante 12fitzinabox: posts the ante 12BogiePutt: posts the ante 12*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to fitzinabox [Kd]Dealt to BogiePutt [As]Dealt to jawalives [Jd]Dealt to drcossack [6s 5s 8d]Dealt to AAsnake88 [Qd]Dealt to armen13 [2c]Dealt to BunnyRocks [3d]Dealt to TwinsCubsFan [4c]armen13: brings in for 18BunnyRocks: foldsTwinsCubsFan: foldsfitzinabox: raises 42 to 60BogiePutt: raises 60 to 120AAsnake88 said, "<---was 21 in 1992"jawalives: foldsdrcossack: calls 120fitzinabox said, "bogieeeeee"AAsnake88: foldsdrcossack said, "lol"armen13: foldsfitzinabox said, "if cossack called i callin"fitzinabox: calls 60*** 4th STREET ***Dealt to fitzinabox [Kd] [9d]Dealt to BogiePutt [As] [7s]Dealt to drcossack [6s 5s 8d] [8c]Pair on board - a double bet is alloweddrcossack: checksfitzinabox: bets 120BogiePutt: calls 120drcossack said, "Of course, my"drcossack: calls 120*** 5th STREET ***Dealt to fitzinabox [Kd 9d] [5d]Dealt to BogiePutt [As 7s] [Jc]Dealt to drcossack [6s 5s 8d 8c] [9h]drcossack: checksfitzinabox: bets 120BogiePutt: calls 120drcossack said, "oops, lol"drcossack: calls 120*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to fitzinabox [Kd 9d 5d] [4h]Dealt to BogiePutt [As 7s Jc] [2h]Dealt to drcossack [6s 5s 8d 8c 9h] [3c]drcossack: checksfitzinabox: bets 120BogiePutt: calls 120AAsnake88 said, "stud8 pls"drcossack: calls 120*** RIVER ***Dealt to drcossack [6s 5s 8d 8c 9h 3c] [Js]drcossack: checksfitzinabox: checksBogiePutt: checks*** SHOW DOWN ***drcossack: shows [6s 5s 8d 8c 9h 3c Js] (a pair of Eights)fitzinabox: shows [9s Kh Kd 9d 5d 4h 2d] (two pair, Kings and Nines)BogiePutt: shows [Ks Ad As 7s Jc 2h 3h] (a pair of Aces)fitzinabox collected 1554 from potLolli74 [observer] said, "Lori wins please"*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 1554 | Rake 0Seat 1: fitzinabox showed [9s Kh Kd 9d 5d 4h 2d] and won (1554) with two pair, Kings and NinesSeat 2: BogiePutt (button) showed [Ks Ad As 7s Jc 2h 3h] and lost with a pair of AcesSeat 3: jawalives folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 4: drcossack showed [6s 5s 8d 8c 9h 3c Js] and lost with a pair of EightsSeat 5: AAsnake88 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 6: armen13 folded on the 3rd StreetSeat 7: BunnyRocks folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 8: TwinsCubsFan folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)I have a lot of hands, I'll look through my HH e-mails from Stars and see if I can find more decent ones.