Memo To Atheists

[colonel Feathers 5]

Frosted Flakes are grrrrrrrrrrrereeeeaaatt

[SilentSnow 1]

A The inclination and ability to question Gods existence is argument for his very existence, Being someone of faith, I enjoy lurking here and particularly the posts of loismustdie and the responses of jmkiser and others. So I would like some serious as opposed to retarded responses to some questions ive had. B If humans are the result of totally random acts of natural and unguided happenstance, tnen why are humans and only humans given the following qualities. C Oh, and where are all the fossils of the failed species that would have to exist in a totally trial and error form of evolution.

I cant sleep tonight, so for one post I guess I'll take over crowtrobot's usual job.A- No it isnt. Period.B- Evolution isnt random. Biological fitness guides it. C- Wow. Just wow. There are literally thousands of these fossils. You know so little on this subject that I dont think we can even begin to have a serious discussion on these issues. Read several books on evolution and evolutionary psychology, and then maybe we can talk. 1.Other animals have this also. Especially for offspring.2.I agree that Humans are the smartest animal. But this certainly doesnt prove God's existence, and we arent as far ahead as we would like to think. I try not to be too cynical, but sometimes it seems that some humans arent all that more intellectual than monkeys. See Myspace for proof.3.Sadly enough, humans lag far behind some other species in this regard.4.Homosexuality is widespread among other animals. And who's to say they wouldnt be into BDSM if they had the equipment? Someone needs a research grant to explore this pressing issue.5.Plenty of predatory and social animals seem to have this.6.Once again, definitely not unique to humans.7.Who knows exactly what they are thinking? But animals certainly seem by their actions to have a universal fear of death.8.While at a much simpler level, other animals do make an effort to learn things about their world.9.First of all, I dont think the gap is as big as you think it is. But I'd like to congratulate you for finally asking a real scientific question. There are a lot of potential reasons for this. For most animals thinking gets you killed. That's why they have quick instincts and dont think too much. The explanation I would guess is right is that there was an evolutionary arms race among humans. Humans got smarter so they could out-think and out-adapt other humans. The reason this happened among humans and not among other animals is that prehumans obtained an upright posture and usable hands. This gave just enough of a benefit to added intelligence to push things in that direction. There was enough of a feedback effect that slightly smarter humans tended to be selected. Even so, if I am remembering correctly, humans almost went extinct during one of the ice ages. For most of human history, added intelligence didnt seem to be that big of an evolutionary plus. Based on population numbers, it is only very recently that humans have become much of a success. And due to our propensity to destroy each other and our planet, the jury is still out on whether intelligence is an evolutionary dead end. I could spend more effort on this, but why bother? If you want good responses, then you are going to have to ask questions that at least demonstrate that you have spent the smallest amount of effort trying to research evolution, atheism, etc.

[simo_8ball 0]

The inclination and ability to question Gods existence is argument for his very existence

Only in the sense that the inclination and ability to question the FSM is argument for it's existence. It's just a tortuous pseudological argument.

If humans are the result of totally random acts of natural and unguided happenstance

No theory says they are. Evolution by Natural Selection is the opposite of random. Most Creationists fail to appreciate this (or at least they regularly promote Evolution as being random for the purpose of making it seem ridiculous).

why are humans and only humans given the following qualities.

1. Ever had a pet cat or dog?2. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7022201007.htmlThat is pretty advanced. To create tools for hunting is what we do. What complex things are you on about? Communication? Dogs learn tricks. They can recognise and interpret numerous vocal commands. That's pretty advanced.3. Dolphins have sex for pleasure. Not sure about others, but one example is enough to refute your claim.4. Many animals are homosexual. "Homosexual behaviour has been observed among 1,500 species, and in 500 of those it is well documented" (Wikipedia). Baboons have also been known to display paedophilic tendencies. Necrophilia is also well documented in many species.5/6. Animals display all the same emotions and traits as humans. Greed, jealousy, envy, happiness, sadness, love, hate, etc. etc. Hell, just look at a pet dog or cat.7. How do you know they don't fear death? What traits would they display if they did (what traits to humans display for this)? The only way we know humans fear death is because they say it. If humans couldn't speak, how would you know that some humans fear death? Animals run away from undue danger, and they generally try to survive. A fish out of water will fight to get back to water to survive. You have no evidence to say they don't fear death.(As an aside, why do religious people fear death, when surely going to Heaven is so wondrous - surely death should be embraced and approached with eagerness?)8. These are very recent traits for humans (probably only a few hundred thousand years, but I'd have to do some research to confirm). The monkeys making tools is a definite step in that direction. Most species indulge in playful behaviour. Dolphins search their surroundings looking for interesting things to do. They are intellectual pursuits.In terms of trying to improve lifestyle and things of that ilk, most species search for the best areas to live. On a basic level, a cat will search for a warm and safe place to sleep in a house. That's improvement of lifestyle on a very simple level. There are infinite examples, as you can see. They aren't as advanced as to make real medical research, but "it has been reported (but not scientifically proved) that cats and dogs will eat grass if they have a digestive system problem such as gastritis or nausea. They will also eat unusual materials if they have a nutritional deficiency" (http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/grass.htm)9. You would be surprised how intelligent dolphins are. I don't care if you don't want to hear it. They are damn smart. The gap isn't that big. Same with primates.Actually, your overall point here is logically flawed. Suppose we find a world with several intelligent species on it. Then, go back in time. One by one, the intelligent species will 'devolve' until you are left with one species that meets your criteria and a few that are fairly close to it. Oh, wait. That sounds like earth, doesn't it? If you fast forward a few hundred thousand years it's entirely possible that we will have several intelligent species living here. We just happen to be the first to get to this point.

And yes i have seen "A hitchhikers guide to the universe" and while finding it mildly amusing, I dont think there is anything in it worth referencing.

It's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and if you've only seen the film you're missing out. All 5 books in the trilogy are worth reading.

[Vick07 0]

4.Homosexuality, transexuality,pedophilia and any other sexual fetishes only humans engage in.

Proximo: "Those giraffes you sold me, they won't mate. They just walk around, eating, and not mating. You sold me... queer giraffes. I want my money back."-Gladiatornuff said

[Don Giovanni 0]

wow colonel feathers. as others in this thread have already shown you, every single one of your big claims can be found in animals. i suggest you spend more time lurking and thinking and learning about basic stuff in the world around you before coming in here and trying to make some big unbeatable argument for religion becuase all you have done is shown the ignorance of many religious people.

[colonel Feathers 5]

What? Just cause someone replys doesnt make them correct. Animals do not show compassion towards theyre prey. Nor would they show mercy. And I do have cats and dogs, and once the young are weaned they are basically pushed away.

[simo_8ball 0]

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/...lanets-oth.htmlThought this was pretty interesting. Maybe tells you a little about how close in intelligence we really are.

[jmkiser 0]

I'm just answering these without having looked at all of the responses to the thread. I'll probably respond to those after this point, but this will be directly for the OP.As a person of faith, you'll definitely have to admit that you're looking for every possible inclination that your god does exist.We can question whether anything esists. Why does questioning gods existence an argument for it being true? Sure, you can come back and say that "well, realistically, we don't argue santa's existence, but that there is serious discussion for a god". Realistically, there isn't. There has been nothing out there to show any shred that there actually is a god. Also, every reason can be given to explain as to why god is "important" in society (a history of the creation of god in human eyes... from the first thunder bolt in the sky to the explanation of the beginning of everything)...Point being is that the standard at which we argue "realistically", god does not meet. There's nothing tangible or nothing to seriously suggest that we KNOW there IS a god. Therefore, until otherwise discovered, god is "realistically" a figment of our imagination that we discuss every day.Also, before going through the questions, you speak of humans and only humans... let me ask you this, if our brains are the most evolved out there, why would you expect another species to have the reasoning qualities that we do? What about the specific qualities to birds? Why do only they get to utilize their bodies to fly? Why do only cheetahs get to run that fast? And the cherry on top, why do HUMANS get to be the "thinkers"? The best and most honest answer to those questions THAT WE HAVE TODAY (keywords) is our study on the evolution of life on this planet. Now that we got that out of the way, I can delve into the answers1.

the emotion of love. Especially the unending love {for the most part} of offspring.

I have no idea. We are the most evolved when it comes to logical brain processes. Remember, you're taking primitive emotions and adding a logical brain behind it. Not only are we just thinking about the emotion itself, but then we're relating it to our environment. We see things, hear things, feel things, etc... and that shapes everyones VERY unique viewpoint of love itself. As far as offspring goes, I don't think we are that unique in the love of our offspring. Now as far as any "studies" on love, I don't know. Honestly, I don't care to know. I'm perfectly happy loving the one woman in my life and am perfectly happy in continuing to do so for the rest of my life. To me, that's all that matters. The rest of you can do your own things ;)2

the ability to solve complex problems

humans got the brains and cheetahs got the speed. Now if you're asking me "why do the humans get the brains and the cheetahs get the speed?" like a smoked out hippie, then I can tell you "hey, we can't possibly answer that question yet"3

Recreational sex.

I personally don't know and still don't care just yet. When the question of "why do humans like recreational sex instead of animals" leads to the discovery of some amazing things we don't know yet, then I'll probably care a little more. I could guess and say something about how evolved our brains are from all of the other species and that we can take a natural instinct like sex and turn into something for ourselves.4

Homosexuality, transexuality,pedophilia and any other sexual fetishes only humans engage in.

Don't know, don't care. Are you claiming this has relevance to the existence of god? If you do, then why?5

Hate, for the sake of hating.

It usually takes our extremely evolved and fine tune brains to mis-wire for us to actually hate for the purpose of hating (ex. sociopath) Most of the time, we develop reasons in our head as to why we hate something... even if they actually make sense or not. Let's take an example of a backwoods white power racist guy. He hates the rap culture because he feels they have ruined his environment (he's stuck out in the country while the black man makes all the dough)... he doesn't know any better because he's never seen a poor black neighborhood in his life. The inkling of dislike for all black people crosses his head. Then people in his environment tell stories about issues with black people. Then he has one bad instance where the black cashier at McD's forgot his apple pie. Suddenly, it's n***** this n***** that and they are the cause of every problem in the world. As smart people, we think... damn that guy is a retard and hates for absolutely no good reason. In his mind, he thinks he has every reason in the world to hate. I think it, literally, takes a snapped line in the brain (a bad issue with the finely tuned inner workings that only our brains have) to kill the form of a conscience and create a sociopath (someone who DOESN'T need a reason to hate... they are very uncommon in the world). Overall, though, I really don't know the details.6,7, 8, etc etc etcWe are currently a very uniquely evolved species. There isn't another one out there that utilized the brain like we do let alone the rest of the body. Since our species is obviously so unique compared to the rest of the world, why would it be odd that we have traits that are unique to our species? Other species that become more and more evolved in ways similar to how humans did it will begin to show more and more of the traits of the evolving brain like ours. 9

And finally, If evolution was totally random with no outside influence, why is there such a wide gap in the intellegence level between us and our nearest neighbor. Shouldnt there be species almost as smart? And please dont tell me Id be surprised how smart dolphins are

Is it a wide gap? If you're a believer, I would think that the gap would be practically nothing compared to the gap between the abilities of god and us. Kind of a double standard. Either way, you talk about wide gaps in mental abilities. What about the wide gap between other species traits that no one else comes close to? The point is that you act like humans got everything and all the others got nothing. Obviously, I will take my brain power over a bear's strength any day, but the "value" of the trait has nothing to do with the uniqueness of it. There are TONS of species with unique traits that we couldn't even begin to fathom. A cheetah's speed vs. ours ...... a bear's strength vs. ours ..... our brains vs theirs. There's nothing unique about it.

Oh, and where are all the fossils of the failed species that would have to exist in a totally trial and error form of evolution.

In museums? Are you saying that we don't have fossils of extinct species?

[colonel Feathers 5]

OK I lose.Admittedly some points were poorly stated. Such as fear of death. What was meant was the fear of afterdeath.That being said , unfortunately for me I am a hunt and peck typist with limited vocabulary, so I have not the energy or inclination to counter argue.But I am astounded that some of you are comparing the achievements and abilities of Humans to animals. As Jim Rome would say, OUT.

[Loismustdie 0]

OK I lose.Admittedly some points were poorly stated. Such as fear of death. What was meant was the fear of afterdeath.That being said , unfortunately for me I am a hunt and peck typist with limited vocabulary, so I have not the energy or inclination to counter argue.But I am astounded that some of you are comparing the achievements and abilities of Humans to animals. As Jim Rome would say, OUT.

Don't go down so easy. You have something with that last sentence. Think about it for awhile and then run with it.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Don't go down so easy. You have something with that last sentence. Think about it for awhile and then run with it.

Loismustdie......perhaps you could take the ball from him and run with it. Maybe you could talk about anthropocentrism and how Christianity is perhaps the root of the anthropocentric worldview that has caused environmental degradation.

[Loismustdie 0]

Loismustdie......perhaps you could take the ball from him and run with it. Maybe you could talk about anthropocentrism and how Christianity is perhaps the root of the anthropocentric worldview that has caused environmental degradation.

Nope, this is his thread. I pretty much am done getting involved in any other conversations here. If he shows potential, he gets an invite to my new site.

[jmkiser 0]

Alright, since this is his thread, then please answer the basic question.Lois is asking you to "run with" the idea that humans and animals have no relation to each other.You asked a bunch of questions and I've, personally, answered them honestly.My question is:Why is it odd that humans got what they got while other animals got what they did? Why is it odd that a species has unique traits? Why is it odd that our unique trait happened to be a brain unlike any other animal? Should we have gotten land speed like no other animal instead?or in other words,Why is it a big deal that humans are humans?(are you trying to prove the existence of god by observing human traits? because that wouldn't even come close to being circumstantial evidence... you can just as easily say it was god or a creator as I could say that it was alien species from an existence a billion times larger then ours that just planted our universe as a seed in his alien garden [men in black ripoff])

[solderz 0]

Nope, this is his thread. I pretty much am done getting involved in any other conversations here. If he shows potential, he gets an invite to my new site.

for real? 2008 rules. I humbly thank Loismustdie's mythical creator for removing him from this forum.

[colonel Feathers 5]

Alright, since this is his thread, then please answer the basic question.Lois is asking you to "run with" the idea that humans and animals have no relation to each other.You asked a bunch of questions and I've, personally, answered them honestly.My question is:Why is it odd that humans got what they got while other animals got what they did? Why is it odd that a species has unique traits? Why is it odd that our unique trait happened to be a brain unlike any other animal? Should we have gotten land speed like no other animal instead?or in other words,Why is it a big deal that humans are humans?(are you trying to prove the existence of god by observing human traits? because that wouldn't even come close to being circumstantial evidence... you can just as easily say it was god or a creator as I could say that it was alien species from an existence a billion times larger then ours that just planted our universe as a seed in his alien garden [men in black ripoff])

[colonel Feathers 5]

Alright, since this is his thread, then please answer the basic question.Lois is asking you to "run with" the idea that humans and animals have no relation to each other.You asked a bunch of questions and I've, personally, answered them honestly.My question is:Why is it odd that humans got what they got while other animals got what they did? Why is it odd that a species has unique traits? Why is it odd that our unique trait happened to be a brain unlike any other animal? Should we have gotten land speed like no other animal instead?or in other words,Why is it a big deal that humans are humans?(are you trying to prove the existence of god by observing human traits? because that wouldn't even come close to being circumstantial evidence... you can just as easily say it was god or a creator as I could say that it was alien species from an existence a billion times larger then ours that just planted our universe as a seed in his alien garden [men in black ripoff])

First of all thanx for your honest and non flame responses. Ive respected your opinions even tho I disagree. In fact I Almost think you are a believer who is playing devils advocate with us. That being said , and even tho I type hunt and peck Ill attempt a few brief responses. Ive always wondered, without a God,supreme being, or some other form of higher intellect, and with all existence being evolutionary randomness, why would humans even exist? They are they are biologically inferior to predatory animals, they serve no real purpose in the food chain, that is they are not a necessary source of sustenence to any other species.They are poor stewards of the environment in fact this pklanet, ecologically might be better off without them. So there must be some other purpose for our existence. Humans needed more than superior intellect to thrive. Think about it. If our intellect were put into dogs, cats cows, swine or anyother beast, what could they really have done with it? It is our very anatomical construction that allows us to thrive. Such as an opposable thumb allowing us to construct. I just cant believe it was a coincidence that humans lucked out with intellect plus the anatomy to develop and take advantage of it. Finally , maybe there is no God. Maybe we are all doomed to rot and decay in a dark grave for eternity. If I really believed that why bother living. Whats the point? Delaying the inevitable is an exercise in futility. We might as well live according to the concept of survival of the fittest. Kill off the weak, homeless, infirm,those with more than you and take it,DEmocrats{HAHA}etc,etc,etc, I aint gonna live that way. If Im wrong about God Ill never know it anyway. If your wrong youll never forget it.You are an inspiration Lois, just saying not proposing.

[hblask 1]

(1) Ive always wondered, without a God,supreme being, or some other form of higher intellect, and with all existence being evolutionary randomness, why would humans even exist? (2) They are they are biologically inferior to predatory animals, they serve no real purpose in the food chain, that is they are not a necessary source of sustenence to any other species. (3) They are poor stewards of the environment in fact this pklanet, ecologically might be better off without them. So there must be some other purpose for our existence.(4) Humans needed more than superior intellect to thrive. Think about it. If our intellect were put into dogs, cats cows, swine or anyother beast, what could they really have done with it? It is our very anatomical construction that allows us to thrive. Such as an opposable thumb allowing us to construct. I just cant believe it was a coincidence that humans lucked out with intellect plus the anatomy to develop and take advantage of it.

(1) Why would any *particular* thing exist, with or without the existence of a supreme being? What would you have exist instead?(2) I'm not sure how you can say we are "biologically inferior", seeing as we can kill any other animal using what evolution has provided for us, but animals can mostly only kill us in instances of surprise or carelessness.(3) I'm not sure why you say we are poor stewards of the environment. We are part of it like anyone else. We shape it to meet our needs quite successfully, in fact, way more successfully than any other being.(4) One reasonable theory is that evolution "tried" different combinations of brain sizes and opposable thumbs and upright walking etc. Big brains with hoofs and molars just burns energy without any way to make use of the brain power. Opposable thumbs give an advantage, but opposable thumbs with upright walking AND big brains is a HUGE advantage. So basically, we don't know about all of nature's failed experiments, but humans hit the jackpot. We're the ones who got the thumbs THEN the brain that made them even *more* advantageous. Getting the brain first is likely a liability. As for why *we* "lucked out" with the correct combination, I guess the answer is that whichever animal had "lucked out" would be asking that same question. Leopards with opposable thumbs and 60 MPH and big brains would be wondering why they got all the luck.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Finally , maybe there is no God. Maybe we are all doomed to rot and decay in a dark grave for eternity. If I really believed that why bother living. Whats the point? Delaying the inevitable is an exercise in futility. We might as well live according to the concept of survival of the fittest. Kill off the weak, homeless, infirm,those with more than you and take it,DEmocrats{HAHA}etc,etc,etc, I aint gonna live that way. If Im wrong about God Ill never know it anyway. If your wrong youll never forget it.

So you believe you're going to a better place when you die? If so, why delay that inevitability? It seems rather odd to me that someone would consider this life worthy of living only if there is something else at the end.

[Loismustdie 0]

for real? 2008 rules. I humbly thank Loismustdie's mythical creator for removing him from this forum.

Lol. That gave me a good laugh. Sometimes, you just gotta know when to fold them.

[jmkiser 0]

So you believe you're going to a better place when you die? If so, why delay that inevitability? It seems rather odd to me that someone would consider this life worthy of living only if there is something else at the end.

ding ding dingThe way I see it is that those who believe in an afterlife have absolutely no reason to live this life to the fullest. If I truly believed in an afterlife, I wouldn't as well. I would do nothing but praise god's name and live for god. I wouldn't ever worry about earthly pleasures or anything. I would just completely "live for god" and throw away this presence on earth because the afterlife is apparently timeless and the life on this planet is a spec in the dustpile of life.Those that don't believe in an afterlife AND have accepted that they are going to die some day, those are the people that I see who appreciate life and live life to the fullest. They realize that this MAYBE all that they have. The idea of a timeless afterlife waters down the current life that you're living.And thank you for respecting me and I will always do my best to be respectful back... I'm sorry if sometimes I'm a little to blunt or forward

[colonel Feathers 5]

A few days ago a tiger escaped its pen and killed a kid,who may or may not been taunting it. The police then killed the cat.It seems there is more sympathy out there for the cat It is said that the tiger shouldnt have been killed cause it was only doing what comes naturally for it. Well DANGIT, I want to be accorded the same priveleges as the cat. If I see someone weaker than me wearing something I want than I should be able to attack and take for myself. Since there is no God, than the law of the jungle should rule. That is the survival of the fittest,as you Darwin fans are well aware of. Of course the reply will be "thats just immoral". "so what" I will say. He has it, I want it, Im stronger, so I will take it. Just like all of my brother animals do every day. In fact just as Humans have done for centuries. Ancient romans,greeks, visigoths, spanierds, "Evil white europeans" who came to america and ousted the Indians. In fact you darwinists should be applauding our conquest of the in dians as prime examples of the law of survival of the fittest. Well I believe none of that nonsense because I believe in God, and morality comes from him and nowhere else. How do I know this? Because before Moses was given the ten commandments, before the Bible, and before Jesus Christ, There was very few examples of behavior that resmbled anything close to morality. And finally, if the bible was nothing but lies, I dont believe it coulda withstood the test of time and influenced human behavior, both good and bad for thousands of years. Its falsaehoods woulda been vetted out long ago.

[simo_8ball 0]

Ok I don't even know where to start.I'll just say that it starts out as completely wrong and gets progressively worse from there.

[Loismustdie 0]

Ok I don't even know where to start.I'll just say that it starts out as completely wrong and gets progressively worse from there.

No, it's good question. If we are no better than animals that why are we held to a higher standard?

[Loismustdie 0]

ding ding dingThe way I see it is that those who believe in an afterlife have absolutely no reason to live this life to the fullest. If I truly believed in an afterlife, I wouldn't as well. I would do nothing but praise god's name and live for god. I wouldn't ever worry about earthly pleasures or anything. I would just completely "live for god" and throw away this presence on earth because the afterlife is apparently timeless and the life on this planet is a spec in the dustpile of life.Those that don't believe in an afterlife AND have accepted that they are going to die some day, those are the people that I see who appreciate life and live life to the fullest. They realize that this MAYBE all that they have. The idea of a timeless afterlife waters down the current life that you're living.And thank you for respecting me and I will always do my best to be respectful back... I'm sorry if sometimes I'm a little to blunt or forward

What you fail to realize is that praising Gods name and living your life for him for a believer IS living this life to it's fullest and highest potential. Nothing is or could be greater. Since we are commanded to respect this temple that is given to us by God, suicide is not an option. Hello, Jim Jones.

[simo_8ball 0]

No, it's good question. If we are no better than animals that why are we held to a higher standard?

Who says we are no better than animals? Seriously?