Hi Side Only Draw

[Frez 0]

This is just my second go at a 5/10 table. It's a HORSE game actually.PokerStars 5/10 Omaha/8 (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)Preflop: Frez is BB with , , , . 2 folds, Bully raises, Cally calls, 2 folds, Frez calls.Bully has been, well, a bit of a Bully. From the BB with an extra caller I think I can see the flop here and hope to take it down if it comes high cards. Without the caller I fold, and if I'm not double suited I probably fold too.Flop: (6.40 SB) , , (3 players)Frez bets, Bully raises, Cally calls, Frez calls.I like this flop. Only one low card. My top pair isn't the greatest, but I'm open ended for the nut high. I bet out hoping to just take it. The raise is a surprise, but obv I can call.Turn: (6.20 BB) (3 players)Frez checks, Bully bets, Cally calls, Frez calls.Semi-miss. Two pair, still open ended (if a straight is good here). Can I peel the river and fold UI?River: (9.20 BB) (3 players)Textbook check raise n'est pas? I don't have the top boat, but I think I'm good. Or should I lead out and call one, but not two, raises if it comes back?Final Pot: 15.20 BBIs my logic flawed anywhere along the way? Bully was NOT happy with the result, and filled the chatbox window, so it made me take a second look. I know it I was never in the lead for the pot equity here, but I think I always had a draw worth calling for.

[antistuff 0]

preflop is meh, flop and turn good. i might check raise flop. on the river, he probably has something he will at least pay you off with. if you think he will always bet then check raise him. if cally is really really super cally then going for the check raise is better.

[Cappy37 0]

Wow.. What drove action for 2 streets and called you on the river, that you were able to beat? Sport us some real names, plz?

[Frez 0]

Wow.. What drove action for 2 streets and called you on the river, that you were able to beat? Sport us some real names, plz?

Are you voting that someone had trip Jacks or Queens?Which is saying I played it bad and should have let it go when raised on the flop?Details please - I need help!

[checkymcfold 0]

if you're playing at an aggressive game, all these streets are standard, as would be going for the c/r on teh river. against a lot of players, i am showing down q10 every time. what's the sn of the villain? i know most players on stars in that general level.cappy, don't assume that people playing this aggressively is bad. what they're doing is making you define your hands so that they can play perfectly against you. frez is fortunate here that his hand looks a whole lot more like k9 than it does k10q. otherwise, he'd have to bet out the river and lose a little value.

[Frez 0]

Bully = HexaraiCally = dkent2230Does that shed any light on it?Wanna call the hands checky before I show results?

[checkymcfold 0]

Bully = HexaraiCally = dkent2230Does that shed any light on it?Wanna call the hands checky before I show results?

don't know anything about either of those, actually, lol. i'm going for an 8910J type hand (but not a boat--probably a lower str8 than ak tho) for the bully and total air for cally

[Cappy37 0]

Are you voting that someone had trip Jacks or Queens?Which is saying I played it bad and should have let it go when raised on the flop?Details please - I need help!

nonono.. I was implying the exact opposite: I wanted to know what could be withstanding action on the flop turn and river and still lose to a baby boat? If you had the winner, I was hoping you'd sport some opponent names .That said, you got all draws killed on the river, and it is 7-handed.. so.... meh.River just sucks for action, truthfully.. too many draws missed, and made draws never get excited about a board pair. If we bet out, I think we are raised by better boats and bluffs, but if we check, I'm not certain anyone is betting out...I think you have to bet out, I wouldn't raise (I'd rather give everyone the chance to call for one bet), but I would almost have to bet out considering it's limit.Never forget to factor in that in horse, 1/2 the table is playing a game they aren't completely solid at (this goes up to 80%+ for Razz). This makes high flops a little more deadly in Horse O8B than in regular ring O8B. You can certainly see people show down QQ94 or JJ77 here more often than nature intended.

[Cappy37 0]

If we are calling out hands, I'm guessing AK45 (A4 hearts) for Bully and Cally is sporting a JJ87 with the J8 of spades.

[Frez 0]

Close checky ... not so much cappy.Bully flopped a set of ducks with his 8c 2s 3h 2c. Cally turned the idiot straight with Ah 8d 3c 9h. Cally should have let that go on the flop. Back door nut low and gutshot to weak high. Not worth it - especially since he had to call 2 with open action behind him on the flop. Right? Oh, and the river check raise went perfect. check - bet - call - raise - call - call.So this wasn't a great hand by me, but I still think I my line was OK with all the outs I had, especially when it became clear there was not going to be a low. Bully got married to bottom set... tough luck for him. Cally should have let it go on the flop, should probably has raised the turn, and as played folded the river for the second bet on my check raise. Right?Am I getting this game yet?

[Cappy37 0]

Well, cally had the idiot straight draw + nut flush + nut low (backdoor) on the flop, so I can't see Cally going anywhere.. Seriously, that's as good a flop as it's gonna get with A389 nut hearts.Bully is insane playing a baby set vs. a broadway board.Very odd hand.. I actually like betting out on the river, because you will get worse hands to call, and for everytime you get that C/R in, you also get checks behind once, so I think it evens out in the long run, plus there is always the chance you will get raised anyways.And damn, was checky ever close on that guess.. wowza.

[checkymcfold 0]

Very odd hand.. I actually like betting out on the river, because you will get worse hands to call, and for everytime you get that C/R in, you also get checks behind once, so I think it evens out in the long run, plus there is always the chance you will get raised anyways.

worth talking about this, imo.a checkraise is definitely the best play here. first, our relative position is such that c/ring as compared to betting out yields not one but two extra bets since we're trapping cally in there, so it only needs to work 1/2 of the time to be a breakeven attempt. considering the tendencies of "bully," the action in this hand to this point, and everyone's likely holdings, i'd estimate it works damn near 90-100% of the time, so it's clearly best.also, betting out and getting raised will force out cally most of the time unless he is seriously retarded, so 3betting a raise will actually be -ev as compared to c/ring two players (3 bets from bully on the river<2 bets from each villain).a WHOLE LOT of the edge as you move up in LO8 and start to play generally competent players is going to come from your ability to manipulate tendencies and predict action. your extra bets as compared to your opponents' are going to come from manipulating rivers exactly like this one. a "normal" good player will bet out here, and functionally miss out on 1-2 bets, whereas the best players at the table are going to know that c/ring is a better play. spots like this are EXACTLY what's going to separate an excellent o8 player from a merely good one, and will often set the winners apart from the losers as you move into mid-high stakes o8 territory.

[Frez 0]

I actually like betting out on the river, because you will get worse hands to call, and for everytime you get that C/R in, you also get checks behind once, so I think it evens out in the long run, plus there is always the chance you will get raised anyways.

I hear ya - good advice. I think I was so sure that Bully would bet that it tipped that even chance in favour of the check raise. But I would not have liked it if he had 3-bet me.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Im not convinced it was a good call pre-flop. You have a less than mediocre hand, with bad position. What flops can come that you would like (other than top set with no low possible)? Its hands like this that seem to bleed a lot of your hard earned BB's from the other HORSE games. The fact that you got there on the river is irrelevant. Flop is fine, but I think check-raising has merits as well here with 3 in the pot. Id rather try to get it heads up here or on the turn, to help you win the pots where you dont catch your straight against some fool with aces here (or other similar raising hands that missed this type of flop but didnt want to give it up - which happens a lot at these levels). Turn is fine as played.I hate trying to check-raise the river. Every time I tried it on Absolute, they didnt bet...lolId rather get one for sure bet in there, than risk getting 0. However, with three players, its probably the best play, as one of them is bound to fire. Checking with the intent of raising doesnt seem to work as often as you like in split pot games IMO heads up, but in multi's, you can usually count on some donk who missed to take a stab.