O8 5/10 Limit Tough Hand

[dna4ever 2]

This was a live game so dont have a pretty hand history.I really felt like such a calling station this hand and also really felt like I was beat both ways, but I couldnt bring myself to lay it down.I got into that mode where I felt like I was pot committed and just kept calling.I would greatly appreciate any advice on this hand.Live $5/$10 Limit Omaha H/L 8 or better cash gameStacks are irrelevant cause everyone has plenty of chipsHero MP with A 2 7 Q :heart:5 PLAYERS IN THE HANDEP CALLS $5 MP CALLS $5HERO RAISES BUTTON $10SB FOLDS $2BB RERAISES $15EP CALLS $10MP CALLS $10HERO CALLS $5PREFLOP POT: $67FLOP 2 2 5 :diamond:BB BETS $5EP FOLDSMP RAISES $10HERO RAISES $15BB RAISES $20MP CALLS $10HERO CALLS $5FLOP POT $132TURN 2 2 5 A :club:BB BETS $10MP RAISES $20HERO PUKES ON THE TABLE AND CALLS $20BB RAISES $30MP RAISES $40HERO CALLS $20BB CALLS $10TURN POT $282RIVER 2 2 5 A 3 :spade:BB BETS $10MP RAISES $20HERO CALLS $20BB RAISES $30MP RAISES $40HERO CALLS $20BB CALLS $10FINAL POT $432RESULTS ....

BB shows 2 3 4 K wheels the lowMP shows A A 9 9 aces fulls the highHero mucks

[Cappy37 0]

Yikes.There is a short list of hands that 3 bet there.. AA with lows, and AA without.Still, someone *has* to have to two case aces to beat you there, so you can justify calling based on that.Main argument against is your low is good maybe 3% of the time here, probably less. No matter how much you've had to drink, you gotta understand you are playing for half the pot here. That hurts your pot-odds quite a bit, since the flop automatically tells you this is going to be capped on the higher money streets. Damned if you do, damned if you don't: if you bail early you don't see that ace on the turn. But if you bail early, you are screwing yourself because your A2 is likely the best high on the flop. Depending on how bad the other players are, it's nigh impossible to put anyone on a hand with 55 in it that willingly goes nuts facing resistance pre-flop.This is much like picking up QQ vs. KK in a satellite when you are both large stacks. You need to lay down, but it goes against everything your gambling essence stands for. Facing that much raising PF, it's way too likely someone has an Aces (if they are good) or Fives (if they suck). You'd like to believe these two ID Ten Tangos are fighting over the low, but that's wishful thinking talking you into putting in a ridiculous amount of money in hopes of taking down half the pot. Figure you are 50% likely to have the best high, and then realize the amount of money it costs you to find out, and this is an easier decision. This hurts 10 times more if the dude with aces is a wildman and this is the one time he actually shows down the nuts.

[dna4ever 2]

Yikes.There is a short list of hands that 3 bet there.. AA with lows, and AA without.Still, someone *has* to have to two case aces to beat you there, so you can justify calling based on that.Main argument against is your low is good maybe 3% of the time here, probably less. No matter how much you've had to drink, you gotta understand you are playing for half the pot here. That hurts your pot-odds quite a bit, since the flop automatically tells you this is going to be capped on the higher money streets. Damned if you do, damned if you don't: if you bail early you don't see that ace on the turn. But if you bail early, you are screwing yourself because your A2 is likely the best high on the flop. Depending on how bad the other players are, it's nigh impossible to put anyone on a hand with 55 in it that willingly goes nuts facing resistance pre-flop.This is much like picking up QQ vs. KK in a satellite when you are both large stacks. You need to lay down, but it goes against everything your gambling essence stands for. Facing that much raising PF, it's way too likely someone has an Aces (if they are good) or Fives (if they suck). You'd like to believe these two ID Ten Tangos are fighting over the low, but that's wishful thinking talking you into putting in a ridiculous amount of money in hopes of taking down half the pot. Figure you are 50% likely to have the best high, and then realize the amount of money it costs you to find out, and this is an easier decision. This hurts 10 times more if the dude with aces is a wildman and this is the one time he actually shows down the nuts.

Thanks for that, both of these players (as well as most of the people that play in this game) are fairly solid O8 players and even though they are capable of making moves this just felt like nuts. I knew my low was no good and knew I was playing for half the pot, but somehow I convinced myself they were wheeling and would split the low with maybe aces up or naked deuce prayer for the high.*Shrug*I just hated calling calling calling calling and not having the nuts either way, but couldnt convince myself to let it go.

[speedz99 145]

TURN 2 2 5 A :club:BB BETS $10MP RAISES $20HERO PUKES ON THE TABLE AND CALLS $20BB RAISES $30MP RAISES $40

This is where I fold. Against solid players you've got to know at least one of them has AA or 55 a large enough percentage of the time to make it worth cutting your losses, since you know you're going to have to cap the river as well. Tough one though.

[ahosang 0]

Is it too tight to fold the flop against any 2 semi-decent non-maniacs?? Against such types I fold in PLO8 to a bet and raise(in a HU pot it's different).Anyway, what happened??

[Sheiky 0]

From what i can deduct, dna4ever lost monies.

[checkymcfold 0]

you can probably find a fold somewhere on the turn, depending on the sort of game it is, but if the villains are live lagtards instead of live passivetards, you're just going to have to chalk this one up to a cooler and move on.asohang, i think folding the flop would be a huge mistake here.i also probably cap this preflop just in case i decide i want a free card somewhere.

[ahosang 0]

you can probably find a fold somewhere on the turn, depending on the sort of game it is, but if the villains are live lagtards instead of live passivetards, you're just going to have to chalk this one up to a cooler and move on.asohang, i think folding the flop would be a huge mistake here.i also probably cap this preflop just in case i decide i want a free card somewhere.

Ok, but is that your usual exaggeration - thus meaning a small error - or do you really mean huge mistake??Also, should hero just call, or does the raise have merit??OP, I agree about capping pre-flop btw.

[checkymcfold 0]

Ok, but is that your usual exaggeration - thus meaning a small error - or do you really mean huge mistake??Also, should hero just call, or does the raise have merit??OP, I agree about capping pre-flop btw.

i really do think it'd be a huge mistake, considering this is a big pot brewing, we have 3 overs even if a villain is boated up already, and there is a low/wheel draw present that could be pushing this pot hard on the flop. i'm raising for both value and information here, as an A3 hand might bet or pop you once, but it ain't gonna cap very often unless it's A34x or A23x.

[ahosang 0]

I was just thinking it's funny how games change so quickly due to the accelerated nature of the internet.2 years ago, if I were to have played in a hypothetical HORSE game, LO8 would probably have been the most profitable for me and HE would be my nightmare. Now, I'm competing and comfortable in LHE, but think that LO8 would be my leak. That's why i stopped playing O8 I think. I've been having these weird ideas recently about some similar skill sets or mindsets being needed for HE and O8(both in the limit and big-bet form). The frequency of the 'nuts' is higher in O8, but possibly due to the bi-directionality of the game(nut-nut is actually quite rare), the fact is that there are many hands(the ranking of the hands will of course differ between the 2 games) to contest without being too loose from a game theoretical POV. The difference is in the pre-flop disparites which can arise in HE, and of course the lowering of variance which occurs in O8.The flop probably brings a similar distribution of a certain hand-strength(relative to their frequencies in the game) in both games. I don't know for sure, and have no data whatsoever to support this. It's just a feeling. If someone wanted to mess around with some pokertools it might be interesting. Some online pros probably have. I have done it extensively for stud8, so I know it's probably worth someone's time. The game doesn't really appeal to me anymore even when its soft.

[Cappy37 0]

I was just thinking it's funny how games change so quickly due to the accelerated nature of the internet.2 years ago, if I were to have played in a hypothetical HORSE game, LO8 would probably have been the most profitable for me and HE would be my nightmare. Now, I'm competing and comfortable in LHE, but think that LO8 would be my leak. That's why i stopped playing O8 I think. I've been having these weird ideas recently about some similar skill sets or mindsets being needed for HE and O8(both in the limit and big-bet form). The frequency of the 'nuts' is higher in O8, but possibly due to the bi-directionality of the game(nut-nut is actually quite rare), the fact is that there are many hands(the ranking of the hands will of course differ between the 2 games) to contest without being too loose from a game theoretical POV. The difference is in the pre-flop disparites which can arise in HE, and of course the lowering of variance which occurs in O8.The flop probably brings a similar distribution of a certain hand-strength(relative to their frequencies in the game) in both games. I don't know for sure, and have no data whatsoever to support this. It's just a feeling. If someone wanted to mess around with some pokertools it might be interesting. Some online pros probably have. I have done it extensively for stud8, so I know it's probably worth someone's time. The game doesn't really appeal to me anymore even when its soft.

I find this amusing because I experience something different when I'm playing HORSE (granted, I play HORSE almost exclusively in tournaments): My best game and worst game are my most profitable rounds.I get beyond healthy during every Razz section (my best game), and I follow it up by getting even healthier in Stud (my worst). I think it says a lot about hand selection and agression, but it constantly befuddles me how I consistently book big gains in tourneys in the Stud section. I mean, granted, I burn through my time bank in the late stages just to stall high-blind LHE rounds, and the split games are generally a wash.. Actually, I've had some really ugly Stud8 incidents that make me wonder if I need to find some more reading material, because suited babies cost you so dearly in the late stages. I went from 2nd to out in 6th at a FT the other day because in back-to-back hands I had OESD babies on fourth and bricked the high money streets to the point I didn't even end up with a low. I know variance is a witch and all, but I've been struggling in Stud8 for quite a while.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I dont think I can honestly see me folding this hand, at any time. They happen...