Donking It Up Again

[Sheiky 0]

Some insight into this hand, the guy on left will finished behind me in rank if we both go all in and lose, this played some part in my decision.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button (t11261)SB (t16302)Hero (t6315)UTG (t1252)MP1 (t4133)MP2 (t16442)CO (t11795)Preflop: Hero is BB with A, J. UTG calls t1177 (All-In), 2 folds, CO calls t1600, 2 folds, Hero raises to t6240, CO calls t4640.Flop: (t14107) K, 3, T(3 players, 1 all-in)Turn: (t14107) 6(3 players, 1 all-in)River: (t14107) 4(3 players, 1 all-in)Final Pot: t14107Ok, i know i played this hand like crap, i don't really need to be told that (though i suppose some reinforcement couldn't hurt).However, what should be my line in situations like this? I hate flat calling with a big ace, but if i raise anything i'm going to be close to pot commited myself and at least if if shove it in here and the guy behind calls i will finish in the money.

[copernicus 0]

I don't think trying to isolate against a dominated A, or low/middle pairs is a bad play here. Youre almost certainly playing AJ anyway, you dont have enough of a stack to raise and play post flop poker, and flat calling invites a whole world of players behind you into the hand. I push also.

[rog 0]

... flat calling invites a whole world of players behind you into the hand. I push also.

Ummm we're the BB. There's a shove and a call. Who else is coming into the hand?edit: CO is getting 2:1 to call our shove. He's never folding here. I'd call here and shove any flop if I'm committed.

[copernicus 0]

Ummm we're the BB. There's a shove and a call. Who else is coming into the hand?edit: CO is getting 2:1 to call our shove. He's never folding here. I'd call here and shove any flop if I'm committed.

My bad...up too late last night. The question with these positions and stacks is why does CO flat call instead of isolating. He clearly doesnt have a big hand and is on a draw of some sort, or letting the world in behind him would be a terrible play. I still think pushing is right..in fact better, because youre out of position and have a tough time playing most flops.

[Sheiky 0]

Ummm we're the BB. There's a shove and a call. Who else is coming into the hand?edit: CO is getting 2:1 to call our shove. He's never folding here. I'd call here and shove any flop if I'm committed.

There's no shove though, the first guy didn't even have enough to raise the blind

[jmbreslin 0]

The question with these positions and stacks is why does CO flat call instead of isolating. He clearly doesnt have a big hand and is on a draw of some sort, or letting the world in behind him would be a terrible play.

Remember, this is a $1 tourney. Limping and flat-calling with big hands is a very common occurrence at this level. When they have a big pair they think it's better to have lots of people in the hand, so they flat call hoping to invite more action. I would not be surprised to see CO flip over AA/KK here, though it could also be a small-medium PP, a mediocre Ace, or something like KQ, KJ.This might be a good spot for a stop-and-go, as rog suggests. Given that UTG could have a wide range, and CO could be calling with plenty of marginal hands, calling and open-pushing the flop may force CO off a hand that he would otherwise be tempted to call a push with PF (such as many of the non-AA/KK hands I mentioned above). If an Ace falls you could also get a call on the flop from a weaker Ace, which he would be more likely to fold PF.*Edit: Sorry, it's not technically a stop-and-go since UTG didn't raise. But still...

[jmbreslin 0]

By the way, is this a 45-man tourney? I'm trying to get a sense of the payout structure.

[Sheiky 0]

Yeh it's a 45 man, with 7 payed.You're spot on about the CO, he insta called and showed QQ, i busted out in 7th, something that i do a lot of in SNGs.

[jmbreslin 0]

I've been playing these $1.10 45's myself lately. I often find that once you're in the money you can often climb a few spots with a small stack just by sitting tight while others crumble under the pressure of the blinds. Here you're 5th in chips with UTG about to go out and MP1 soon to have a big chunk taken out of his stack when the blinds hit him. Since the payoff for 5th is twice as much as 7th ($4 compared to $2), an argument could be made for playing this hand cautiously and taking a free look at the flop. Given the way people play at this level, that limp by CO for 1600 chips (13.5% of his stack) with 3 to still act behind him is a big red flag.By the way, shouldn't UTG have busted out ahead of you, or did he survive the hand?

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Call check check check check check betonlythenuts

[Sheiky 0]

I've been playing these $1.10 45's myself lately. I often find that once you're in the money you can often climb a few spots with a small stack just by sitting tight while others crumble under the pressure of the blinds. Here you're 5th in chips with UTG about to go out and MP1 soon to have a big chunk taken out of his stack when the blinds hit him. Since the payoff for 5th is twice as much as 7th ($4 compared to $2), an argument could be made for playing this hand cautiously and taking a free look at the flop. Given the way people play at this level, that limp by CO for 1600 chips (13.5% of his stack) with 3 to still act behind him is a big red flag.By the way, shouldn't UTG have busted out ahead of you, or did he survive the hand?

Ah yeh he did, can't remember what he had but he was crused and finished 7th.The problem i'm having in these is carrying on a good start and making the most of the luck, i seem to get a bit stuck once i get any chips, a lot of the time i can't decide what i'm aiming for, the top spot of anywhere higher than i am atm.What's your strategy for these?

[jmbreslin 0]

What's your strategy for these?

1. Play tight early2. Play big hands hard to build stack3. Look for early opportunities to hit big hands with low risk (e.g., limping behind several others with low PP)4. If I haven't been able to build my stack early, sit tight in the middle stage and look for good pushing opportunities (this either results in doubling-through or busting out mid-field)5. If I have built my stack, then I steer clear of the bigstacks and look for spots to accumulate by using position and picking on shorties6. Continue to accumulate by taking some chances to knock out shorties and avoiding bigger stacks unless I have a strong hand7. Don't get too crazy, fancy, or aggressive - other players will make plenty of mistakesMy sample size is very, very small, but so far I've had good success in these $1.10 45's. When I cash I tend to either win or sneak into the money and get knocked out in 5th-7th.

[Cappy37 0]

I agree wholeheartily with everything jm said.You can click the "Check" button and see the flop and then decide how much you love AJ. Just do that. You aren't getting someone who has you well covered to fold getting 2-1. This is an absolutely freeroll situation. You shouldn't be in a hurry to get your money in the middle, AJ isn't beating 2 players a whole lot of the time without flop help, so let's see the flop.It's too bad Sandwedge doesn't post in strat, he's the grandmaster of folding to 5th and then never losing another hand. I'd value his input greatly here.

[jmbreslin 0]

Wow, that's the first time anyone has agreed wholeheartedly with me. Maybe I have learned a thing or two over the past few months...

[Flushgarden 0]

This is a shove preflop, no question about it. We should be playing to win, not finish 5th.

[copernicus 0]

This is a shove preflop, no question about it. We should be playing to win, not finish 5th.

Right answer, wrong reason

[Stuples 0]

I think I'm shoving here because of the fact that UTG has gone allin because he's got so little left. I think CO is only calling because he thinks the same about UTG and he has a fairly average hand that he'd like to see a flop with. Our M is pretty low and this is an opportunity to get some chips whether the CO calls our all-in or not.

[Flushgarden 0]

Right answer, wrong reason

So we shouldnt be playing to win? We could check/fold the flop if we dont hit and wait hope one or two people get knocked out before the blinds hit us again...but its extremely unlikely we'd have a chance to win if we do that.Also we should shove because usually we're ahead of both of their ranges and we might have some fold equity vs the CO. Having a better chance of winning is a benefit of shoving, there for we're playing to win and not finish 5th, right?

[copernicus 0]

So we shouldnt be playing to win?

No, you don't take inordinate risks to win a SnG vs playing a lower risk game to finish in the money, the difference in payouts doesnt justify it.

[Flushgarden 0]

No, you don't take inordinate risks to win a SnG vs playing a lower risk game to finish in the money, the difference in payouts doesnt justify it.

Define inordinate risk as applied to this situation. Is getting your money in when you're likely ahead an inordinate risk?This is a 45 man SNG where first place pays 13x the buyin and 7th pays 2x the buyin. IMO you can't fold hands where you're likely going to be a favorite because you're afraid of bubbling. These 45 mans should be treated more like a MTT. If this were a 9 man SNG where 3 get paid and you likely have an edge but the bubble will probably burst if you fold then you should definitely fold...but thats not the case here.

[copernicus 0]

Define inordinate risk as applied to this situation. Is getting your money in when you're likely ahead an inordinate risk?This is a 45 man SNG where first place pays 13x the buyin and 7th pays 2x the buyin. IMO you can't fold hands where you're likely going to be a favorite because you're afraid of bubbling. These 45 mans should be treated more like a MTT. If this were a 9 man SNG where 3 get paid and you likely have an edge but the bubble will probably burst if you fold then you should definitely fold...but thats not the case here.

If this is a 5 tabler I agree...in fact I said the same thing in another post, a 5 tabler is more of a MTT than a SnG. Until youre deep into the money tEV and $EV are close enough to ignore prize considerations.

[Cappy37 0]

Wow, that's the first time anyone has agreed wholeheartedly with me. Maybe I have learned a thing or two over the past few months...

Well, I don't think anyone can call me overly conservative when I say I'm not overjoyed at the idea of being 3rd person into a pot with AJ, much less being ready to push the action needlessly PF. We are talking gaining $1 a payout here, but it is a free dollar, and if we don't hit the flop with AJ, we aren't likely to win this pot anyways, 3-handed or not. CO is never folding here, and we're only beating a weak ace... which.... is the only hand he's actually likely to fold here.I just confused myself. See the flop.. Like what you see, shove.. Don't like it fold.. Poker much simpler when we make it simpler. Shoving PF doesn't create a fold, it creates a large pot in which we hold AJ. We have to beat CO to survive/show a profit, and we have to beat FIV to show substantial profit.