To Be Honest

[Vick07 0]

I came across this forum looking for arguments for and against The Case for Christ on googlebut I am a big poker fan being from Texas and all...Daniel I think you would like the book "I Sold My Soul On Ebay." I won't take the time to describe it just search for it I am positive you will enjoy it I'm about to start it. Many of you seem to have a bleak outlook on Christianity in general. It seems to be from more or less a lack of understanding of the religion. Read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.... It has nothing to do with Narnia or Aslan and its one of the best books (however few) I have read. It puts aside denominations and sects of the religion and focuses on the things all who sincerely call themselves Christian believe. I read The Case for Christ and like many of you noticed how biased it was, it seemed he was trying to sound biased. For a more to the point and an argument based more on evidence I would recommend Josh McDowell's Evidence for Christianity.My interest in religion, Christianity, creationism, evolution, etc. was sparked by a debate on another forum similiar to many of the ones yall have here. Bruce M. Metzger, one of the scholars interviewed in a Case for Christ, is a Christian. The author of Misquoting Jesus, Bart D. Ehrman, was so influenced by Metzger he dedicated his book to him. They both studied the same historical texts and came out with different conclusions.... far as I can tell thats the same thing that happens to just about everybody, along with the frequent influence of people believing what they want to believe.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I came across this forum looking for arguments for and against The Case for Christ on googlebut I am a big poke rfan being from Texas and all...Daniel I think you would like the book "I Sold My Soul On Ebay." I won't take the time to describe it just search for it I am positive you will enjoy it I'm about to start it. Many of you seem to have a bleak outlook on Christianity in general. It seems to be from more or less a lack of understanding of the religion. Read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.... It has nothing to do with Narnia or Aslan and its one of the best books (however few) I have read. It puts aside denominations and sects of the religion and focuses on the things all who sincerely call themselves Christian believe. I read The Case for Christ and like many of you noticed how biased it was, it seemed he was trying to sound biased. For a more to the point and an argument based more on evidence I would recommend Josh McDowell's Evidence for Christianity.My interest in religion, Christianity, creationism, evolution, etc. was sparked by a debate on another forum similiar to many of the ones yall have here. Bruce M. Metzger, one of the scholars interviewed in a Case for Christ, is a Christian. The author of Misquoting Jesus, Bart D. Ehrman, was so influenced by Metzger he dedicated his book to him. They both studied the same historical texts and came out with different conclusions.... far as I can tell thats the same thing that happens to just about everybody, along with the frequent influence of people believing what they want to believe.

Anyone else think it's funny that a guy coming in here supporting Christianity, Case for Christ and in general an "Academic" pro Christian point of view has the name " Vick07"?

[Vick07 0]

Anyone else think it's funny that a guy coming in here supporting Christianity, Case for Christ and in general an "Academic" pro Christian point of view has the name " Vick07"?

Well I appreciate that, I think...innocent until proven guilty in this country mate, but if you wanna talk about that we can do it in the other forum....

[jmkiser 0]

Evidence for Christianity? When was this? Has any been presented?

[Vick07 0]

read the booki'll buy iti know you probably meant that to be comical

[crowTrobot 2]

many things we claim seem ridiculous... but do we have evidence of life spontaneously generating from non life?

that has no relevance to christianity. different subject.

[Vick07 0]

Yeah thats why i took it off... But aside from the laws of physics and mathematics and the other obviously facts of the universe there are FEW things we can know for sure.... thats all I was getting at.... if you know what I mean

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Well I appreciate that, I think...innocent until proven guilty in this country mate, but if you wanna talk about that we can do it in the other forum....

If you think Micheal Vick is innocent of being an active participant in Dog fighting than you are a straight up sucker, and it's no surprise you think "Case for Christ" is a compelling argument for xianity.

[brvheart 1,752]

I came across this forum looking for arguments for and against The Case for Christ on googlebut I am a big poke rfan being from Texas and all...Daniel I think you would like the book "I Sold My Soul On Ebay." I won't take the time to describe it just search for it I am positive you will enjoy it I'm about to start it. Many of you seem to have a bleak outlook on Christianity in general. It seems to be from more or less a lack of understanding of the religion. Read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.... It has nothing to do with Narnia or Aslan and its one of the best books (however few) I have read. It puts aside denominations and sects of the religion and focuses on the things all who sincerely call themselves Christian believe. I read The Case for Christ and like many of you noticed how biased it was, it seemed he was trying to sound biased. For a more to the point and an argument based more on evidence I would recommend Josh McDowell's Evidence for Christianity.My interest in religion, Christianity, creationism, evolution, etc. was sparked by a debate on another forum similiar to many of the ones yall have here. Bruce M. Metzger, one of the scholars interviewed in a Case for Christ, is a Christian. The author of Misquoting Jesus, Bart D. Ehrman, was so influenced by Metzger he dedicated his book to him. They both studied the same historical texts and came out with different conclusions.... far as I can tell thats the same thing that happens to just about everybody, along with the frequent influence of people believing what they want to believe.

Good bye... credibility.

[brvheart 1,752]

If you think Micheal Vick is innocent of being an active participant in Dog fighting than you are a straight up sucker, and it's no surprise you think "Case for Christ" is a compelling argument for x.

Maybe I read a different OP than you BigMc.... but it seems to me like he said just the opposite.

Read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis....I read The Case for Christ and like many of you noticed how biased it was....

[Vick07 0]

latest news on vickSucker? You are the one that believes the stories the media puts on tv and in the newspapers when they can't find any other good sports stories because there's nothing else going on in footballInnocent before proven guilty you commyYeah I care whether he really did do it or not . . . but so far since they can't link him to it (after all this time and after the feds got involved).... if they had something on him they would've charged him with something by now

[Vick07 0]

I do think a lot of you would enjoy reading I Sold My Soul On eBay.... He's an atheist who auctioned off the oppurtunity for someone to take him to church around the country. And don't worry he didn't change his mind in the end so you have nothing to worry about.. It's just a really intelligent analysis of the way Christianity is in general in America today.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

latest news on vickSucker? You are the one that believes the stories the media puts on tv and in the newspapers when they can't find any other good sports stories because there's nothing else going on in footballInnocent before proven guilty you commyYeah I care whether he really did do it or not . . . but so far since they can't link him to it (after all this time and after the feds got involved).... if they had something on him they would've charged him with something by now

Yes. You are a sucker. Let me put it to you this way.. if god existed and we could ask him one question.. and for some reason that question would be "Was Michel Vick involved with Dog fighting", and you had to bet 10,000 dollars on either "yes" or "no" which would you bet on? If you bet on no, you're a sucker.

[Vick07 0]

....How is that?

[BWToth 0]

....How is that?

What evidence to you have to the contrary? Basically all you're saying is.."Michael Vick is innocent because he hasn't been proven guilty in a court of law." Do you see that this is illogical?

[Vick07 0]

I'm saying he most likely isn't guilty, at this point, because they don't have enough evidence on him to even get him into a court of law, let alone charge him with anything.

[solderz 0]

I'm saying he most likely isn't guilty, at this point, because they don't have enough evidence on him to even get him into a court of law, let alone charge him with anything.

Bringing this back to the subject of God not existing, do you really think that their is enough evidence for God to prove his existence in a court of law? No. Then why do you believe in him/her/it? If the above is your justification for believing Vick is innocent, you should also use it to become a fully responsible adult and declare your atheistic beliefs.

[BWToth 0]

I'm saying he most likely isn't guilty, at this point, because they don't have enough evidence on him to even get him into a court of law, let alone charge him with anything.

Seems like you have a bit too much faith in our judicial system. But I guess a lot of your beliefs are based on faith alone aren't they?

[Vick07 0]

1. BW seems like you have a little bit too much faith in our media that looks for good stories that sell and not the truth. Don't think because he breeds pit bulls he fights them. My cousin just got a pit up in Indy and I saw it a few weeks ago, its one of the nicest dogs I've seen. They're strength and athleticism could be of appeal to an athlete... That dog was nothing but muscle - and not all are aggressive, there was a dog next door and it ran over to it and ran back when called. 2. I never said I knew for sure Vick was innocent. I believe he is, I also believe there's a God. Thing is, since everybody loves proof so much, you can't PROVE that he DOESN'T exist anymore than I can prove he does.Philosophers like Richard Dawkins will philosoph (if thats a verb) on how everything could have come into play without Him. They're very interesting theories - but they are just theories. (I'm not saying mine are proven fact, they are just more appeasable to me). They're educated guesses on how life and everything we know came into being. Creationism isn't a science, but it's not farfetched to say it is also an educated guess based on the complexity and the exacticity (if thats a word) of our Earth, the atmosphere, the galaxy etc. etc. I also think of how science has come so far in the past thousand years.. its common sense that it would continue to explain away the (now) few conservative beliefs that are out there. Its harder to believe in something you can't see than something you can. God is a possibility, you and no one else has been able to prove otherwise. The lack of one is also a possibility. I ponder every day on the possibility that a God doesn't exist and everything I strive to live my life for is for nothing. The idea disturbs me because if all I do is for nothing I would want to live my life to get the most out of it for me. You act like I'm a mindless zombie following the preacher and ignoring the guys in the white lab coats. I've analyzed evolution and all that.. But to me it makes more sense otherwise. Keep questioning. Don't ridicule. It doesn't make you look any better than anybody else.

[Vick07 0]

accidentally posted twice.. not sure how to delete it

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

1. BW seems like you have a little bit too much faith in our media that looks for good stories that sell and not the truth. Don't think because he breeds pit bulls he fights them. My cousin just got a pit up in Indy and I saw it a few weeks ago, its one of the nicest dogs I've seen. They're strength and athleticism could be of appeal to an athlete... That dog was nothing but muscle - and not all are aggressive, there was a dog next door and it ran over to it and ran back when called. 2. I never said I knew for sure Vick was innocent. I believe he is, I also believe there's a God. Thing is, since everybody loves proof so much, you can't PROVE that he DOESN'T exist anymore than I can prove he does.Philosophers like Richard Dawkins will philosoph (if thats a verb) on how everything could have come into play without Him. They're very interesting theories - but they are just theories. (I'm not saying mine are proven fact, they are just more appeasable to me). They're educated guesses on how life and everything we know came into being. Creationism isn't a science, but it's not farfetched to say it is also an educated guess based on the complexity and the exacticity (if thats a word) of our Earth, the atmosphere, the galaxy etc. etc. I also think of how science has come so far in the past thousand years.. its common sense that it would continue to explain away the (now) few conservative beliefs that are out there. Its harder to believe in something you can't see than something you can. God is a possibility, you and no one else has been able to prove otherwise. The lack of one is also a possibility. I ponder every day on the possibility that a God doesn't exist and everything I strive to live my life for is for nothing. The idea disturbs me because if all I do is for nothing I would want to live my life to get the most out of it for me. You act like I'm a mindless zombie following the preacher and ignoring the guys in the white lab coats. I've analyzed evolution and all that.. But to me it makes more sense otherwise. Keep questioning. Don't ridicule. It doesn't make you look any better than anybody else.

You keep believing Vick is innocent, and I'll keep ridiculing, is pretty much how that works.

[Loismustdie 0]

You keep believing Vick is innocent, and I'll keep ridiculing, is pretty much how that works.

Dead dogs and rape stands mean nothing. He may just be a collector of dog fighting paraphanelia. Wait--no,no, he's just guilty. On top of that, every pair of Nikes that has been released for his line has been dog ugly. He should be imprisoned for just that alone.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Dead dogs and rape stands mean nothing. He may just be a collector of dog fighting paraphanelia. Wait--no,no, he's just guilty. On top of that, every pair of Nikes that has been released for his line has been dog ugly. He should be imprisoned for just that alone.

Here's the weird part.. I don't really give a damn if M. Vick is guilty or not. Dog Fighting ranks pretty low on the crimes I give a crap about list ( my sympathy for the suffering of animals has been well documented in other threads). I still am entertained by watching vick, I still will love using him in madden. This dog fighting thing means little too me, other than it's further evidence that sports figures and celebrities in general make poor heros. But I have no illusions about the man, how ever. If we could go to the god cam, I'd lay around 20-1 that he has placed at least one wager at a dog fight. I know, I know, rape stands, dog corpses and bloody rugs are "Media hype"

[Loismustdie 0]

Here's the weird part.. I don't really give a damn if M. Vick is guilty or not. Dog Fighting ranks pretty low on the crimes I give a crap about list ( my sympathy for the suffering of animals has been well documented in other threads). I still am entertained by watching vick, I still will love using him in madden. This dog fighting thing means little too me, other than it's further evidence that sports figures and celebrities in general make poor heros. But I have no illusions about the man, how ever. If we could go to the god cam, I'd lay around 20-1 that he has placed at least one wager at a dog fight. I know, I know, rape stands, dog corpses and bloody rugs are "Media hype"

I agree. However, I don't agree with the god like status the Madden AI grants him- the plays he makes in that world are just sick. Here is one for you- do you think that black people of status should be held to a higher standard by there own people because, lets face it, slavery wasn't all that long ago, and good black role models are neccesary? Or, is it that we just seem to see bad **** about black people on the news because that is what the media- the liberal, equal rights touting media- shows us? Which begs the question- if all the media reports is bad things about the black man, when we know that there must be plenty good to report as well, is the media really a friend of the black man or are theY most racist of all? Or,is it that the majority of notable black people are sports stars and the majority of sports stars, white and black, are self-centered assholes like the rest of us? I actually wouldn't mind seeing a cockfight. We could have a BBQ afterward, and we all know fat boy likes his Q.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I agree. However, I don't agree with the god like status the Madden AI grants him- the plays he makes in that world are just sick. Here is one for you- do you think that black people of status should be held to a higher standard by there own people because, lets face it, slavery wasn't all that long ago, and good black role models are neccesary? Or, is it that we just seem to see bad **** about black people on the news because that is what the media- the liberal, equal rights touting media- shows us? Which begs the question- if all the media reports is bad things about the black man, when we know that there must be plenty good to report as well, is the media really a friend of the black man or are theY most racist of all? Or,is it that the majority of notable black people are sports stars and the majority of sports stars, white and black, are self-centered assholes like the rest of us? I actually wouldn't mind seeing a cockfight. We could have a BBQ afterward, and we all know fat boy likes his Q.

1) Black people, per capita, commit more crimes than white people. There are many reasons for this, most being socio-economic. Poor people, of all races, tend commit more crimes. But black urban culture has evolved into a particularly dangerous and crime prone one.2) Many black athletes grew up in poor, dangerous, crime and gang riddled areas. Micheal Vick certainly did, in Neport News (AKA Bad News) Virginia. It shouldn't be suprising that guys who grew up in and around gangs have hard time shaking off their roots. 3) The media certainly exploits the violence of black urban America, and makes it seem alot worse than it is, and turns urban blacks into violent charactures, certainly. But blaming the media for the problems that plague urban black america is pretty much the easy way out, and doesn't help anything really. The media reports the "bad" in general, because human interest stories and mature, thoughtful reporting don't sell pepsi. Titillation, sensationalism and fear sell pepsi. 4) Should black people of a certain "status" be held to a higher standard? I personally don't think so, people are people, they are largely a product of their environment. Expecting people to transform who they are because they get a huge check seems absurd to me. And also, it depends greatly on how the status was achieved. Guys like Vick are gifted natural athletes, but that doesn't mean they have a lick of common sense, or higher intelligence. Athletes like Vick, in addition to being products of violent, gang culture, also have also, due to their athletic prowess, been in a bubble of privilege and entitlement ever since they were in highschool. They knew they were different, gifted. They've been spoiled by all those around them because of it, and are surrounded by sycophants who telll them how wonderful they are, because of that talent. So it's not surprising to me at all that the moral compasses of these people get a skewed. I mean, if it wasn't for athletics, a great number of the these athletes that come from poor urban areas would have been criminals. They grew up in a criminal culture. Their friends from their youth are thugs. I think it's expecting to much from people to go against their upbringing. I think it's remarkable when an athlete rises above the place that they came from, and uses their athletics as a spring board to effecting positive change, and being a positive role model. But this isn't something that should at all be expected. Just because you get a big check with a huge signing bonus, and are now a millionaire, doesn't magically change you into being a better person. I guess what I'm saying is that people shouldn't be surprised that someone who was raised in a culture that, say, Dog fighting is not only acceptable, but is a sign of power an status, discides to participate in that culture when they become successful. It might seem crazy to people like you and me to risk your career in the NFL to run a dog fighting kennel, but you and I, growing up how and were we did, grew up with a different model of success than Micheal Vick did. In his world, the wealthy, successful "players" owned dogs, and bet big on dogs. * shrugs * Personally, I think we, as a society, pick and chose fairly arbirtraily what type of animal abuse offends us. Keeping animals in wretched conditions that we eat because it's cheap? No sweat. Drugging horses, beating them and running them to death? a gentleman's sport. Using dogs of experiements for things like cosmetics, basically torturing them till they are put to sleep (if they don't die from toxicity?) All part of business. Dogs fighting to the death? FELONY. Seems completely arbitrary to me.