Seven & Seven

[DonkSlayer 1]

Comments on all streets welcome. Button is a humongous loose/passive station. Mostly limps preflop. SB is a bad bi-polar, almost always opens for a raise when it's checked to him, but rarely 3-bets, and apparently decides on the flop whether he's going to play the hand aggressively for the rest of the streets.Initial plan was to c/r flop, but then SB came along. Turn bet ok?Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)Preflop: Hero is BB with , . 3 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.Flop: (6 SB) , , (3 players)SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls.Turn: (7.50 BB) (3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds.River: (9.50 BB) (2 players)Hero bets

[bobbywithani 0]

Uggg tough hand. River seems like a good value bet, but mainly concerned with pre-flop and flop action. I think we should be 3 betting this hand pre, despite the SB calling. Do you know how often SB will c/r flops with weak holdings? xxy flops are always pretty standard to attempt to steal from a pf raiser, so does it look he is doing this with overcards that aren't spades very often? I'll let someone that is better at crunching numbers come up with a decent range but I think flop has to be either 3-bet or fold. I can't see calling ever being a good play here.

[Zach6668 513]

So, what are we expecting to call us on this river?

[DonkSlayer 1]

So, what are we expecting to call us on this river?

So, you're saying c/c then? random 5x, 33, 44, another 77.The button is a terrible spewer and I can't imagine not betting the river since he didn't raise the turn.

[Viper_13 0]

So, you're saying c/c then? random 5x, 33, 44, another 77.The button is a terrible spewer and I can't imagine not betting the river since he didn't raise the turn.

You desrcibe the button as extremely loose/passive. He raises preflop. Are you saying you think 33-77 and 5x is part of his raising range?From your description, I would think the button has small raising range, and when you bet the river, most of the time I think you're praying for him to call with AK and maybe AJ. Pretty much everything else that calls beats you. If you check the river, do you think he is capable of betting an A.Preflop is close. Heads up, I 3bet most players. A very passive player that raises makes it closer. With a third player, I don't know if 3 betting is right or not.

[Zach6668 513]

I just feel like an over pair is a super huge part of the button's range here, given the way the flop and turn played out.

[bobbywithani 0]

I just feel like an over pair is a super huge part of the button's range here, given the way the flop and turn played out.

I do too, but as being described as loose and passive I think a bet can be good here. Loose players are most definetly going to call with AK, some wierd 5, or 6, 33, 44. Plenty of other A high hands. I think this is a very thin value bet, but a decent one because of the times it does get checked through with the hands that we beat that will call a bet. I believe most of the hands that beat us on river are not going to raise, and every hand that we beat, that will call a bet, are not going to bet when checked to.The real question is how passive is he pre-flop as opposed to post-flop. Plenty of Loose-Passives mainly show their passivity post-flop where they just get scared to raise just about any board, but at the same time call down with the most marginal hands. I guess I just basically wrote down the definition of LP players so I guess that didn't help at all, but I still think betting river has value when dealing with a player who won't raise anything but the strongest of hands.

[Zach6668 513]

Well, yeah, just because I think an overpair is a big part of his range, doesn't mean we shouldn't bet.Basically, I'll assume he bets his overpairs when we check to him? If so, we're calling a bet anyways, and basically, we'll never be raised by a worse hand, and almost never by an overpair anyways, so it's all the same.But, if the hands he'll call with that we beat, outweigh the hands he'll bet/bluff with that we beat, then we should v-bet, of course.

[bobbywithani 0]

I guess a consideration against the bet on the river is how often he checks his overpairs behind. If we check here would he be scared to bet with AA,KK,JJ etc? I wish I could come up with numbers or something and stop just going on "feel". Damn poker pisses me off sometimes.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, this is a tough one, and really just depends on reads. Some guys will autobet bottom pair here, because zomg he checked to me!!111, and others play scared with their TT or something and check behind. That matters a lot, imo, in this river decision.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Yeah, this is a tough one, and really just depends on reads. Some guys will autobet bottom pair here, because zomg he checked to me!!111, and others play scared with their TT or something and check behind. That matters a lot, imo, in this river decision.

I haven't seen you address 3-betting flop. I feel that a "passive" player at SHLHE will still raise the button preflop sometimes without a premium hand, so I don't give him as much credit as you do, BUT, assuming the range you're giving him, how to play flop then?

[Zach6668 513]

Well. the flop 3-bet is fine, imho. We're mostly ahead here. At this point, we don't know enough about button's range to say what I said earlier. SB could have a lot here as well, so I'm sure our 77 fares very well against their combined ranges, and certainly, if button has overcards, in a pot this big, we'd love to charge him here, and having him fold wouldn't be a terrible result either.Once button calls 2 more on the flop, and calls that turn, I think his range is overpairs or some random Ax overcards with the As, and I doubt he calls a bet on the river without a pair.

[wrto4556 0]

I like it. I think a loose passive guy is going to pay you off in a pot this big with a lot of cheese. What if we check? passive guy bets...id rather just get in the bet on our own time, in a sense.

[RISEorFall 0]

if the guy's a station, why would we not bet? he calls with a ton of hands we beatsure, he calls with hands we lose to some as well, but we make way more betting rather than c/c