Economic Justice

[BWToth 0]

Not maintaining discipline in the schools, allowing blantant insubordination of students. Indoctinating students with antiamerican propaganda( see nea website right after 911). Diagnosing criminals with some obscure psychological disorder so the school has to keep them. The only teachers they can hire are those that can't find jobs anywhere else. No decent teacher is going to teach in that environment. The soft bigotry of low expectations. The misallocation and theft of funds, I will let others take it from here. No I wouldn't work 18 hours a day, I would sit around and hope someone gave me a free check. You are the one who is delusional. There are all kinds of things being offered out therer, but those effected reject them. They are reaping what they have sewn.

Innocent children deserve to be in subpar schools based on their parents actions or inactions?what if you were that kid? I'm talking about the fact that someone has to work 3 jobs just to survive, that's not right. or you think it is?Selfish, conservative pricks, generally. You're way worse than Lois.

[Loismustdie 0]

Yes, thats the problem, mom and dad are working 18 hours a day to put food on the table.(sw) BWToth do you really believe that? Im not saying there are not some people doing that, but they won't be down for long if they are working that hard. Do you think people that work 18 hours a day should have benefits taken away? Your fellow democrats do. There is incentive not to work, now ask yourself why that is. To keep them dependent on the govt check. Wait till the presidential campagns began, listen to Hillary, and the other candadates promising to keep the checks coming and/or sending more checks. An underclass dependent on the govt, provides a nice block of votes for democrats. Lois was right about this the whole time.

I completely agree with myself. I just had to say that real quick.

[BWToth 0]

More typical conservative ploy, just finding things they think are wrong with the libs, but providing no answer's themselves, unless the answer is screw the poor, in which case that contradicts everything they preach about family values and christian morals.You can't have it both ways, which way is it.Just answer one question.No one has done that yet.

[Loismustdie 0]

So people should be denied the right of posterity because they are unable to obtain a job that pays well enough for them to support a child?Do you really think this makes a lot of sense?

Alright, we were going round and round for a bit, but now you ask a real question, and the answer is about as grey as you can get. The answer is no, assuming decent family values are being pushed but as it is now that is not the fact- for teens of all ethnicities it is a badge of honour to have pumped out a baby. Why? I have no clue. Some would blame it on celebrity but this **** started way before it became cool for single celebrities to have children- they didn't start that trend. If there is not a return to the basic thought that hard work equals success and a night at home with the fam is a mans own slice of heaven no amout of arguing will solve this problem- it really all starts in the home. The government can't change this, we as a people must. Here is how... The next time you vote, vote for the person who you think will actually do SOMETHING. Anything, to shake up the status quo, even if you don't agree with what you think he will do because I think at this point the country is so in dire need of change that even 2 steps in the wrong direction would be good, because it will at least have shaken the country out of it's funk, and that will be a good thing. I mean, think about it. We are so largely dense that we have elected officials that spend years getting absolutely nothing done. We built a damn fence- because, apparently Mexicans can't climb. Why didn't we just plant a dense forest patroled by evil gnomes? Well, because Gnomes don't exist,but the point is anyone who believes a fence is the answer is living in a fairytale land. If there were other things you wanted me to look at Toth let me know. I was gone all day, and alot has been said. Also, gentleman, easily one of the best debates we have ever had. 11 pages of relative nice- makes me proud to be an FCPer.

[Loismustdie 0]

More typical conservative ploy, just finding things they think are wrong with the libs, but providing no answer's themselves, unless the answer is screw the poor, in which case that contradicts everything they preach about family values and christian morals.You can't have it both ways, which way is it.Just answer one question.No one has done that yet.[/quote I have answered all kinds of questions, you just don't like the answers. The issue is I am not saying what you want to here. If I missed any,please point them out. I will be happy to oblige.

[BWToth 0]

Well at least I know you're not for keeping things the way they are. I'm happy about that.

[Loismustdie 0]

People working hard to get out of their tough situations are going to be one in a million just like they realistically are today.

And I don't see a need to baby these said people- they will raise other people with the same mindset, and that is bad news bears. Some will need to be prodded a bit.

[Loismustdie 0]

Well at least I know you're not for keeping things the way they are. I'm happy about that.

Hell, no I don't like what I see, and I think change is absolutely neccesary. How we go about delivering change will of neccesity need to be a little cold,though. Tough love I guess.

[Loismustdie 0]

You mean making up lies, skewing the truth, onlying believing what they want to believe, being bigots and unaccepting of other people's views?Those dont' sound like very christian attributes. How come no one will rebutt my acutaly arguments instead of just going off on other tangents. Oh, right, it's because you can't, becuase mine are TRUE.

What exactly does being a Christian mean to you?

[Loismustdie 0]

uncaring govt., uncaring population or family values is just like chicken or the egg.which came first, which led to which, fixing which will fix which?More to come in the morning, when I can more articulately channel my frustration with this putting words in my mouth.

I would say this all started with the advent of the liberal mindset.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Innocent children deserve to be in subpar schools based on their parents actions or inactions?what if you were that kid? I'm talking about the fact that someone has to work 3 jobs just to survive, that's not right. or you think it is?Selfish, conservative pricks, generally. You're way worse than Lois.

This is my last post on this thread, you called me a prick, and I won't continue to argue/debte someone who doesn't have any honor. Here are two things that have been proven to work. Charter Schools and Faith based initiatives, both are being fought tooth and nail by left wing politicions who are in the pocket of the teachers union. I am not saying nothing should be done, I am saying nothing that has proven to work will be allowed to continue. The dems have to have these people totally dependant on them so they aren't going to allow anything that reinforces accountabilty and self reliance. It is that simple.

[BWToth 0]

This is my last post on this thread, you called me a prick, and I won't continue to argue/debte someone who doesn't have any honor. Here are two things that have been proven to work. Charter Schools and Faith based initiatives, both are being fought tooth and nail by left wing politicions who are in the pocket of the teachers union. I am not saying nothing should be done, I am saying nothing that has proven to work will be allowed to continue. The dems have to have these people totally dependant on them so they aren't going to allow anything that reinforces accountabilty and self reliance. It is that simple.

It's the only way i can bait anyone to actually answer a question. My ploy worked, as for all you're 'ideas' explain to me how charter schools brings up the level of everyone's education.Bush's plan for instilling accountablility really worked well didn't 'no child left behind', joke.It seems you agree with everything i'm saying, that the disparity amoung schools needs to be fixed, and the govt. has to play a part in doing that right?Only difference is you want it to be done through the conservative methodology and believe the liberals are somehow inherently evil. I'm a liberal, I want the same end as you, am I evil?At the higher levels there is just as much corruption on the part of the gop (i'll restrain myself from saying more) as their is from the dems.You're biggest problem is that just because i'm coming from the left wing side of things you feel some sort of obligation to attack me.I did the same thing back after I got too frustrated to handle it. I'm sick of this whole conversation too, but I'm not going to stop the discussion I'll keep going to I prove I'm right or you get pissed off and back out every time.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

It's the only way i can bait anyone to actually answer a question. My ploy worked, as for all you're 'ideas' explain to me how charter schools brings up the level of everyone's education.Bush's plan for instilling accountablility really worked well didn't 'no child left behind', joke.It seems you agree with everything i'm saying, that the disparity amoung schools needs to be fixed, and the govt. has to play a part in doing that right?Only difference is you want it to be done through the conservative methodology and believe the liberals are somehow inherently evil. I'm a liberal, I want the same end as you, am I evil?At the higher levels there is just as much corruption on the part of the gop (i'll restrain myself from saying more) as their is from the dems.You're biggest problem is that just because i'm coming from the left wing side of things you feel some sort of obligation to attack me.I did the same thing back after I got too frustrated to handle it. I'm sick of this whole conversation too, but I'm not going to stop the discussion I'll keep going to I prove I'm right or you get pissed off and back out every time.

There is no need to name call, I haven't attacked you personally at all. I think you are better than that but I can only judge you by how you conduct yourself. Anyone that calls someone else a prick, especially when it is inaccurate, is using a bush league tactic that is without honor. Before I go on, I need you to answer some questions. I have asked you several, you never answer, but just continue your rant. I don't think you are evil nor do I think liberalism is evil. I do think that the democratic party in america and the teachers unions, and NEA, are run by antiamerican left wingers whose agenda has zero to do with education. I agee with you. Most polititicions in office today Republican or Democrat are at least somewhat corrupt which is just one more reason we can't depend on the govt to solve the problems in education. I agree with you that Bush no child left behind is a joke. It was a Kennedy plan that Bush signed off on against the advice of republicans. I will try to start a dialog with you and the others in this post once again. Have you seen the movie 'Lean on Me'??

[DonkSlayer 1]

BW, I would only support the institution that children born of parents who cannot reasonably support them to be taken and adopted or raised by the state. I do not support a higher minimum wage or more total government-provided welfare that allows people to continue a cycle of poverty, i.e., bring a child into the world when they make minimum wage. Not always, but many of your choices come down to condoning poor decisions and thusly allowing the cycle to continue. And no, there is no "right to posterity". ...life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness..

[Zealous Donkey 0]

http://www.joeclarkspeaker.com/biography.htmHere is a link for a brief biography of Joe Clark.

[jmkiser 0]

Deja vu ......Anyway, discuss all you want about what you might think is right for this country.I just better not hear any crap that this country needs an influx of "family values".

[semaj550 0]

Deja vu ......Anyway, discuss all you want about what you might think is right for this country.I just better not hear any crap that this country needs an influx of "family values".

What it needs in an influx of hard work. My favourite story is that of Oprah Winfrey herself. She came from slaves and is the richest woman in the world. It took more than one generation to get there but the hard work of many people is what gave her the opportunity to be what she is.

[BWToth 0]

ask away zealous.

[BWToth 0]

BW, I would only support the institution that children born of parents who cannot reasonably support them to be taken and adopted or raised by the state. I do not support a higher minimum wage or more total government-provided welfare that allows people to continue a cycle of poverty, i.e., bring a child into the world when they make minimum wage. Not always, but many of your choices come down to condoning poor decisions and thusly allowing the cycle to continue. And no, there is no "right to posterity". ...life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness..

This is shocking, and appalling, i'm going to have to go eat lunch so I can throw up before I respond.

[DonkSlayer 1]

This is shocking, and appalling, i'm going to have to go eat lunch so I can throw up before I respond.

Rofl. Glad I could make your day. I get Hooters for free today so I may not be back right off the bat. I do encourage you to ACADEMICALLY attempt to persuade me that long-term welfare does not continue the cycle of poverty and that anyone should be able to have a child under any financial circumstances.

[jmkiser 0]

What it needs in an influx of hard work. My favourite story is that of Oprah Winfrey herself. She came from slaves and is the richest woman in the world. It took more than one generation to get there but the hard work of many people is what gave her the opportunity to be what she is.

That does tend to be what this society is all about. Kind of sad, really... all this capitalism that promotes this great work ethic completely kills our country's ability to advance as a society.Ever wonder why socialist societies are so far ahead of the times then we are? I'm not in complete support of socialism, but there is a reason why their systems work so much better then ours. You know.. not worrying about having to make money for things like.. health insurance, a trip to the dentists, etc... and being paid enough money in every job to... you know... live comfortably... leaves these societies free to explore, invent, create, etc.But when it takes a single mother of two running 3 **** jobs just to support her family... god, what a waste of a person :/ so sadPeople seem to be just as free in these countries, too... as in, I can run across the border into Canada and not have to deal with the government seizing my Neteller money. Oh yeah, that's right... they don't have stupid, ignorant, conservative, "values", etc laws that restrict people's freedoms like we have here in America. I forgot about that... oh shoot, I lied... gun control and drugs... ****ing left wingers, too... damn... oh, well, at least I can play poker in peace, right?

[semaj550 0]

That does tend to be what this society is all about. Kind of sad, really... all this capitalism that promotes this great work ethic completely kills our country's ability to advance as a society.Ever wonder why socialist societies are so far ahead of the times then we are? I'm not in complete support of socialism, but there is a reason why their systems work so much better then ours. You know.. not worrying about having to make money for things like.. health insurance, a trip to the dentists, etc... and being paid enough money in every job to... you know... live comfortably... leaves these societies free to explore, invent, create, etc.But when it takes a single mother of two running 3 **** jobs just to support her family... god, what a waste of a person :/ so sadPeople seem to be just as free in these countries, too... as in, I can run across the border into Canada and not have to deal with the government seizing my Neteller money. Oh yeah, that's right... they don't have stupid, ignorant, conservative, "values", etc laws that restrict people's freedoms like we have here in America. I forgot about that... oh shoot, I lied... gun control and drugs... ****ing left wingers, too... damn... oh, well, at least I can play poker in peace, right?

There is a reason I live in Canada. I love that we have universal health care, etc. We also have people who are lazy, on welfare, and perpetuate the cycle of poverty. There is no question that socieital values need to change but a large part of that needs to be the individual's willingness to put in a hard day's work.

[jmkiser 0]

It is true that it does take individual determination, but the cycle of poverty is always going to be there. Government can't put that desire in someone. It's up to the person to give a damn. And that makes me unsure if changing government policy is really going to be effective. We all have the goal to reduce/eliminate poverty and we realize that it is an impossible goal... but then we must ask ourselves this question "To what degree do we work towards and what can be done to get to that cutoff line?" Some people think the government helps out too many people and some people think the government doesn't help enough people. I think that it shouldn't be the government that people look towards :-/The one thing I dislike about conservative ideals, though... is that they seem to think the capitalist society boosts people's desire and determination to work. The only thing they forget is that it only boosts people to do what needs to be done to live... and not much more. People put in so much effort on their standard of living alone that barely anything ever gets done to advance our society... especially compared to more socialist societies. I would agree that there might be more "bottom-feeders" as people like to call it in socialist societies, but those people really decide to live that way. There are so many opportunities in a socialist society. If they want to have what we would consider a crap job with little responsibility making not much money... then fine, I say let them There is nothing wrong with having the desire to deal with little responsibility.In our society, though, many "crap" jobs are ran by people who could (and would) do so much more with their lives if they had half the crap that people in socialist societies had. Universal health care being a huge one. I know many people that run those jobs just so their babies or the people they care about can go to the doctor and make sure they're taken care of. Think of all that wasted effort....

[semaj550 0]

It is true that it does take individual determination, but the cycle of poverty is always going to be there. Government can't put that desire in someone. It's up to the person to give a damn. And that makes me unsure if changing government policy is really going to be effective. We all have the goal to reduce/eliminate poverty and we realize that it is an impossible goal... but then we must ask ourselves this question "To what degree do we work towards and what can be done to get to that cutoff line?" Some people think the government helps out too many people and some people think the government doesn't help enough people. I think that it shouldn't be the government that people look towards :-/The one thing I dislike about conservative ideals, though... is that they seem to think the capitalist society boosts people's desire and determination to work. The only thing they forget is that it only boosts people to do what needs to be done to live... and not much more. People put in so much effort on their standard of living alone that barely anything ever gets done to advance our society... especially compared to more socialist societies. I would agree that there might be more "bottom-feeders" as people like to call it in socialist societies, but those people really decide to live that way. There are so many opportunities in a socialist society. If they want to have what we would consider a crap job with little responsibility making not much money... then fine, I say let them There is nothing wrong with having the desire to deal with little responsibility.In our society, though, many "crap" jobs are ran by people who could (and would) do so much more with their lives if they had half the crap that people in socialist societies had. Universal health care being a huge one. I know many people that run those jobs just so their babies or the people they care about can go to the doctor and make sure they're taken care of. Think of all that wasted effort....

I think you and I are in complete agreement on something.Hey, we need people to do "crap" jobs. Just because something isn't the greatest to do doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be done. I do think, however, that it is irresponsible to choose to procreate without any way of provide your offspring with at least a chance to prosper. That's a big part of our problem - people having kids who shouldnt' be. I suppose that is a right we can't take away from them but at the very least we should expect them to do so in a responsible fashion.

[jmkiser 0]

I think you and I are in complete agreement on something.Hey, we need people to do "crap" jobs. Just because something isn't the greatest to do doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be done. I do think, however, that it is irresponsible to choose to procreate without any way of provide your offspring with at least a chance to prosper. That's a big part of our problem - people having kids who shouldnt' be. I suppose that is a right we can't take away from them but at the very least we should expect them to do so in a responsible fashion.

Cheers to that man!