Belowabove

[lakong 0]

He didn't want to show because he didn't want to give up any more information on how he plays then he has to. I'm actually surprised he was forced to show after the other player mucked. If anyone should be forced to show, it should be the bettor, not the caller. I assume it's to prevent collusion though.There is a reason to accumulate a lot of smaller denomination chips - your stack looks larger to the naked eye. Plus, Kevin probably just wanted to be a prick.

This a fairly common tournament rule. Are you saying that you have played in a live tournament where you didn't have to show? If fact, even though you are not required to show in most cash games, you are required to show if other players request it. So while it was surprising that he didn't know the rule, he should have known that he had to show once we all told him we wanted to see it -- actually we told him that he had to show; which I guess is the same thing as formally requesting. While we were waiting for a ruling we were trying to explain to him that even online you have to show when you win the hand since it's clearly in the HH file for all to see.Anyway, my point is that this is standard. If you play in tournaments you have to show. Perhaps I'll post on 2plus2 to see if I'm mistaken and in fact, it's not as common as I think and as everyone at the table was insisting. You are right about changing the chips. He was probably trying to be a prick to get into the guy's head. The entire thing was comical and unnecessary.

[navybuttons 15]

This a fairly common tournament rule. Are you saying that you have played in a live tournament where you didn't have to show? If fact, even though you are not required to show in most cash games, you are required to show if other players request it. So while it was surprising that he didn't know the rule, he should have known that he had to show once we all told him we wanted to see it -- actually we told him that he had to show; which I guess is the same thing as formally requesting. While we were waiting for a ruling we were trying to explain to him that even online you have to show when you win the hand since it's clearly in the HH file for all to see.Anyway, my point is that this is standard. If you play in tournaments you have to show. Perhaps I'll post on 2plus2 to see if I'm mistaken and in fact, it's not as common as I think and as everyone at the table was insisting. You are right about changing the chips. He was probably trying to be a prick to get into the guy's head. The entire thing was comical and unnecessary.

correct on all accounts. except i'm not sure about HAVING to show if no one asks.welcome to the forum. so far i think you are brighter than 60% of the people here.

[PMJackson21 0]

This a fairly common tournament rule. Are you saying that you have played in a live tournament where you didn't have to show? If fact, even though you are not required to show in most cash games, you are required to show if other players request it. So while it was surprising that he didn't know the rule, he should have known that he had to show once we all told him we wanted to see it -- actually we told him that he had to show; which I guess is the same thing as formally requesting. While we were waiting for a ruling we were trying to explain to him that even online you have to show when you win the hand since it's clearly in the HH file for all to see.Anyway, my point is that this is standard. If you play in tournaments you have to show. Perhaps I'll post on 2plus2 to see if I'm mistaken and in fact, it's not as common as I think and as everyone at the table was insisting. You are right about changing the chips. He was probably trying to be a prick to get into the guy's head. The entire thing was comical and unnecessary.

I can say that I've never seen the rule enforced exactly how you described it, and have seen what BeLoW _thought_ was correct done numerous times w/ out the table making an issue out of it. I can understand wanting to know what Kevin had, but I can also understand his reaction. (see Hellmuth's reaction to Brent Carter in the WSOP ME a few years back in a somewhat similar situation)I don't see any mention of it in TDA rules either, so I would have been under the same impression as Kevin.Based on the whole table insisting however, I can better understand Kevin's actions regarding making change...and LOL at using online HHs example to try and change his mind.

[dbrent2 0]

The guy gave up the pot, a I don't believe he had to show. Tournament rules might be different, but I know in live cash games, if a guy gave up the pot, I wouldn't want to show.

[lakong 0]

welcome to the forum. so far i think you are brighter than 60% of the people here.

Not sure about that. Here is my trip report from that tournament. Perhaps after reading this you'll downgrade that accessment <G>! I have done 'okay' in the past. Best accomplishments: #1 on party $109, two other top 12 on party $109; 2nd in a $300 with rebuy at Commerce, a few 10-15 place in big field, $300-1000 buy-ins. No cashes in several tries at the WSOP.here is trip report

[PMJackson21 0]

(I wonder what would have happened if he mucked after the guy mucked? Does anyone know?)

After looking into it in the RGP archives, I found a ruling where the situation you described happened in a CASH game, and they chopped the pot amongst the remaining players. I'm not sure if that would be the standard, and I have no clue whether or not that would be the case in a tournament as well.Email Matt Savage, he'll usually give a helpful reply. You could try Mike O'Malley too I suppose.Welcome to the forum.

[lakong 0]

I don't see any mention of it in TDA rules either, so I would have been under the same impression as Kevin.

Hmmm, I just looked at the TDA rules and you're right I didn't see this mentioned. However, I've never seen this happen and I've played in tons of tournaments. Also, as I stated before, even in a cash game you MUST show your winning hand if asked.Someone referred to hand with Phil Hellmuth from the WSOP. If it was the hand I'm thinking of it's a completely different situation and I actually think Phil was wrong. In the hand I'm thinking of either his opponent folded or he folded, but the hand did not go to showdown. In that hand, Phil SHOWED his hand to the guy seated next to him and someone at the table then asked to see it. Phil was pissed off, but this was the show-one-show-all rule and I think this is a very important rule. While it may be bad etiquette to ask a losing playing in a showdown to see his hand -- especially if you're not in a hand -- it is perfectly legitimate to ask to see a hand if one person is given the information. So in this case I think it was Phil who was out of line for getting pissed off and of course, it was a much different example than the one I'm bringing up.

[Mercury69 3]

While there's no denying results, the guy is a maniac, plain and simple. IMO, anyone who has some $$$'s and plays a lot of volume will do well if they can handle the swings. Not to take anything away from what he's done, but it's easy to play a $50 Freezeout like a maniac if you have a BR of 10K (or whatever...).That being said, he's certainly honed the style quite effectively.

[PMJackson21 0]

Hmmm, I just looked at the TDA rules and you're right I didn't see this mentioned. However, I've never seen this happen and I've played in tons of tournaments. Also, as I stated before, even in a cash game you MUST show your winning hand if asked.Someone referred to hand with Phil Hellmuth from the WSOP. If it was the hand I'm thinking of it's a completely different situation and I actually think Phil was wrong. In the hand I'm thinking of either his opponent folded or he folded, but the hand did not go to showdown. In that hand, Phil SHOWED his hand to the guy seated next to him and someone at the table then asked to see it. Phil was pissed off, but this was the show-one-show-all rule and I think this is a very important rule. While it may be bad etiquette to ask a losing playing in a showdown to see his hand -- especially if you're not in a hand -- it is perfectly legitimate to ask to see a hand if one person is given the information. So in this case I think it was Phil who was out of line for getting pissed off and of course, it was a much different example than the one I'm bringing up.

You somewhat misunderstood what I meant regarding the Hellmuth/Carter hand. I understand the specifics were different, I was eluding to the 'bad etiquette'. Obviously Phil takes those things to the extreme, but he is not alone in thinking it is inappropriate to force people to show their hands.In the case of Kevin's hand, the whole table 'insisting' to see his hand is laughably bad etiquette. That is why I said I understand if he was a prick when asked to make change.

[navybuttons 15]

In the case of Kevin's hand, the whole table 'insisting' to see his hand is laughably bad etiquette. That is why I said I understand if he was a prick when asked to make change.

yes. because i'm younger people oftentimes ask to see my hand at showdown. i think it's a lack of respect thing. older people know the etiquette but don't feel it applies to them against a younger player.his being a prick makes more sense in context (when i connect the dots).

[SweetDaddyFreak 0]

ahh ok. Ehh, maybe i'd still let him **** on me, I'm into weird stuff like that

I'm sure we can find some type of fetish siteMaybe I'll try a $50 playing crazy, just to try and see what Below is seeing

[lakong 0]

You somewhat misunderstood what I meant regarding the Hellmuth/Carter hand. I understand the specifics were different, I was eluding to the 'bad etiquette'. Obviously Phil takes those things to the extreme, but he is not alone in thinking it is inappropriate to force people to show their hands.In the case of Kevin's hand, the whole table 'insisting' to see his hand is laughably bad etiquette. That is why I said I understand if he was a prick when asked to make change.

I'm just saying that a) in Phil's case, I don't think it's bad etiquette to ask to see a hand if someone decides to show it to another player; B) in the tournament situation I'm referring to from Monday, we weren't trying to angle shoot by asking to see Kevin's hand, we were just pointing out a rule we were all confident was the correct rule. Is it correct for ALL tournaments at all casinos? I thought so, but perhaps I'm wrong. I'm curious to find out and will keep you guys posted if I do.

[Mercury69 3]

I'm not experienced with live play, but I've heard the following:- Show one, show all- Isn't the "Must show" rule limited to when you call someone down and they show their hand and you have to prove that you beat them by showing? If you don't want to show, you don't win the pot. It's like yuo don't have to show if you bet out and your opp folds. Showing the winning hand comes into play only if your opponent shows his hand first. Anyway, i'm a no_0b, correct me if I'm wrong.

[onlyme386 0]

Show one, show all: if you show 1 player your hand, you must show everyone. This is not relevant in this hand.Must show rule: Only if you want to win a hand that is contested. I believe in this case that he shouldn't have been forced to show, as the hand was no longer contested when the opponent mucked.

[Mercury69 3]

Show one, show all: if you show 1 player your hand, you must show everyone. This is not relevant in this hand.Must show rule: Only if you want to win a hand that is contested. I believe in this case that he shouldn't have been forced to show, as the hand was no longer contested when the opponent mucked.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say...

[lakong 0]

Okay guys. I sent the following question to the TDA:I was in the $1k NL tournament at the LAPC at the commerce on Monday. We had a situation where two players were still in the pot at the river. Player 1 makes a bet and Player 2 calls. Player 1 quickly mucks his hand. Player 2 then ‘wants’ to muck his hand, but all of the players at the table AND the dealer insisted that he must show his hand to win the pot. The player would not turn over his hand so a floor person is called and he makes the person show his hand. I have two questions: 1) is this a standard tournament rule – e.g., must a player show his/her hand in order to win a pot even if the other player(s) muck their hands? 2) Assuming that there is a TDA or even a local rule saying that a winning player MUST show his/her hand to win, what would have happened if the remaining player did muck his/her hand? I received two responses. First from Jan Fisher:1- Technically, yes. Other than a bet and fold, the winner must show two cards to win. That being said, there are times such as in the situation you described where the winning hand is the caller and is uncontested. Not only should the hand be shown, but any player in the game may request to see it. It is not a formal rule that he MUST turn over his cards but likely it should be and may be in the cardroom you play. Bottom line is the table was right and the floor acted properly IMO.2-IMO, if he had been asked to show his hand and then deliberately mucked them, I would give him a penalty... likely 10 minutes. If he truly didn't know that he was required to show them and had already mucked them when the arguement ensued, I would have given him a warning with an absolute time out if it were to happen again. Regardless, he still would win the pot.Second from Dave Lamb:1-Yes, any player at the table may request to see the winning hand. Most cardrooms have some version of the rule that states you must show cards in a called pot to win (that includes a check-check on the end where someone must show the winning hand).2-It is not a TDA rule but the last "live" hand is awarded the pot.

[Mercury69 3]

Regardless, I still think it's BS he had to show his hand. The pot was UNCONTESTED.A parallel I can think of is the myriad of stupid "house rules" for playing pool. Behind the line fouls, what constitutes a scratch, etc. Some of these rules are beyond logical explanation, yet people think they are standard. I tell people like that to show me the rule in writing (and not some crayon scrawled note) and then it's open for discussion. But if it's posted on a wall or a website and has been for some time, well, that's somewhat different.Anyway, blah blah blah...Suffice to say, I'm a real stickler for rules when yu get down to it.

[PMJackson21 0]

Okay guys. I sent the following question to the TDA:

Very cool that you got two quick responses. I wish Jan Fisher would start working for Neteller Customer Service. :)Kind of a silly rule I think, only in that I would be much more interested in seeing the original bettor's hand then Kevin's. Would the dealer be able to pull his hand out of the muck if Kevin or the table requested it? I mean, I think I'd gain more information knowing what the guy is bluffing with the whole time, rather then what BeLoW needed to have to call the bet on the river. Anyway, good detective work.