Martyrs Or Nuts

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Joan of Arc PaulPolycarp http://www.biblefacts.org/church/Martyrdom_Polycarp.htmlI'll just stick with these three for now, though there are hundreds. Were these people heros, or just nuts along the lines of the 911 terrorists, Jim Jones-- Peoples Temple, ect. I read over and over in posts how Christianity is just a cult, undistinguished, in any way from any other cult. And that those who died for their faith are just nuts who died for silly superstitions. What do you think?

[crowTrobot 2]

joan of arc followed visions where god supposedly spoke to her personally, became a brilliant military leader responsible for the deaths of many people, and was ultimately burned at the stake by fellow christians for political reasons. you could say she was very much like a 911 terrorist.

[DonkSlayer 1]

joan of arc followed visions where god supposedly spoke to her personally, became a brilliant military leader responsible for the deaths of many people, and was ultimately burned at the stake by fellow christians for political reasons. you could say she was very much like a 911 terrorist.

You could say she was Santa Claus. That would be funnier.

[Loismustdie 0]

joan of arc followed visions where god supposedly spoke to her personally, became a brilliant military leader responsible for the deaths of many people, and was ultimately burned at the stake by fellow christians for political reasons. you could say she was very much like a 911 terrorist.

I agree with that.

[WrongWay 0]

Joan of Arc was almost certainly psychotic.... She heard voices, had visions, etc. She was also HIGHLY intelligent... but it is not uncommon for people to be both genious and psychotic.Paul, not sure. We have no original documentation about him. In fact, we're not even sure if the re-re-re translations of many parts of the Bible that are said to be from Paul are all from the same Paul of different ones.It could be that Paul was a friend of some dude names Jesus. This Jesus dude was very Gandi-ish, Martin Luthor King-ish dude, teaching that we should be kind to each other and that we should resist tyranical rule through grass-roots, non-violent means.... And it could be this Jesus dude was killed for his beliefs.And it could be that his teachings survived him, and his friends and followers continued to spread the word of peace and understanding and resistance to the tyranical rule of the establishment. And it could be that these teachings were very popular, and that the leaders were killed by the power structure in their attempt to hold power over the masses.....And it could be that hundreds of year later, many of the stories had grown into legends, and were mixed with other beleifs, and were re-re-re-re-written, and were eventually reshaped into a religion.Does that make a dude that was a friend of Jesus a nut? Nah. Just someone that stood up to the tyranical rule of the superpowers and died for it.By the way, I don't consider Osama Bin Ladden a nut.... in the Joan of Arc sence. He doesn't seem to have psychotic visions and voices in his head. He seems more like the Knights Templar kind of nut. Someone that holds a false beliefs so strongly that he is willing to kill and die to advance that belief.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

joan of arc followed visions where god supposedly spoke to her personally, became a brilliant military leader responsible for the deaths of many people, and was ultimately burned at the stake by fellow christians for political reasons. you could say she was very much like a 911 terrorist.

joan of arc was 18 yr old illiterate peasant, Bin Laden is a multi-billionaire with access to a slueth of suicidal maniacs like the 911 hijackers. joan of arc claimed to hear directly from God, 911 hijackers heard from Bin Laden. "became a brilltiant military leader" how?? why did soldiers agree to follow her. Joan of arc was responsible for the deaths of thousands of military personel, who were able to defend themselves. She didn't want to die. 911 hijackers were suicidal nuts convinced to sacrificing themselves for the cause of recieving sexual pleasure from 72 virgins, and convinced by a man who tends to keep himself as far away from danger as possible. 911 hijackers killed civilians intentionally. ultimately burned at the stake by fellow christians for political reasons. I agree with this statement but don't see a parallel to 911 hijackers.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Joan of Arc was almost certainly psychotic....

WHAT? How was she able to accomplish so much? She was 17, 18 yr old peasant girl from the country( and psychotic according to you and others) yet was able to singlehandedly influence a change in the landscape of history. Because she was intelligent? How was she able to convince people she was for real? You guys are quick to dismiss things as common folly, which in fact are rare, selfless, acts of heroism. These people ( at least most ) were not suicidal, they didn't want to die, but they did, and not as soldiers, but of their free will. Many of the martyrs could have lived had they cursed Jesus. If they were just trying to stand up to tyrannical rule, they could have denied their Christianity, regrouped and lived to fight another day.

[crowTrobot 2]

I agree with this statement but don't see a parallel to 911 hijackers.

when you said 911s i assume you were referring in general to radical islamists. the parallel is that she became a militant fighting the occupation of her country and was willing to be a martyr all for irrational religious reasons (in her case visions/voices).

Many of the martyrs could have lived had they cursed Jesus. If they were just trying to stand up to tyrannical rule, they could have denied their Christianity, regrouped and lived to fight another day.

if i recall correctly joan of arc was deliberately trapped into being convicted of heresy *against* christiantiy on dogmatic technicalities. it wasn't at all a matter of her denying christianity or not.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

willing to be a martyr

I don't quite agree with this statement. She very much wanted to live, if you read transcripts of her trial, you realize she was terrified and tormented by thoughts of execution and or imprisonment. This IMO is a distinct difference from those who die because they have no respect for life, (ie, islamist extremests) .

if i recall correctly joan of arc was deliberately trapped into being convicted of heresy *against* christiantiy on dogmatic technicalities. it wasn't at all a matter of her denying christianity or not.

Correct, joan's was a little bit of a different situation than those persecuted in Rome. Still, she is an example of a martry for the true Church vs. the oppression of a corrupt imposter.

[crowTrobot 2]

Still, she is an example of a martry for the true Church vs. the oppression of a corrupt imposter.

as are radical islamists (they believe). again, nothing unique or distinguished about christianity when it comes to martyrs.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

as are radical islamists (they believe). again, nothing unique or distinguished about christianity when it comes to martyrs.

No, if the so called moderate peace loving Muslems, were dying to keep their Religion from being hijacked, that would be more along the lines of what Joan was doing.We could go on forever, yes on some level every person who dies for religion or god is similar, but not distinguishing between Christian martyrs and 911 terrorists is a bit silly. They are different on so many levels.

[DonkSlayer 1]

They are different on so many levels.

Like Mario Brothers? That game took forever.

[WrongWay 0]

The difference between the 9-11 hijackers and many Christian martyrs is that the 9-11 hijackers favored violent means where as most of the famous Christian martyrs choose more passive forms of resistance.Not sure this is a huge surprise given the personalities that shaped these mythologies. Jesus was a "passive resistance" anti-establishment kind of dude while Mohomad was an member of the establishment, war-leader type dude.How about buddhist monks that are willing to set themsleves on fire as a passive resistance form of protest to the persecution of thier religion? Are they martyrs or nuts? Does their willingness to die mean their religion is true?Willingness to die for a religion does not establish credibility of the religion. Dieing for it does not make it true.

[crowTrobot 2]

No, if the so called moderate peace loving Muslems, were dying to keep their Religion from being hijacked, that would be more along the lines of what Joan was doing.

from their perspective THEY ARE.

We could go on forever, yes on some level every person who dies for religion or god is similar, but not distinguishing between Christian martyrs and 911 terrorists is a bit silly. They are different on so many levels.

joan of arc was not a passive christian martyr.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

How about buddhist monks that are willing to set themsleves on fire as a passive resistance form of protest to the persecution of thier religion? Are they martyrs or nuts? Does their willingness to die mean their religion is true?Willingness to die for a religion does not establish credibility of the religion. Dieing for it does not make it true.

I admittingly don't know anything at all about the beliefs of Buddhists. Again though, this action seems suicidal to me. The Christian Martyrs were trying to teach or deliver a specific message, and were killed while trying to defend the merits of thier teaching. They didn't kill themselves, they wanted to keep on teaching, preaching, illustrating, converting. Setting yourself on fire as a protest is something I don't understand. What are they hoping to accomplish. Are people that see them do this going to understand why they were setting themselves on fire. Commiting suicide for most any reason shows a lack of respect for life. I agree dying for a cause doesn't make that cause true or even just, but seeing people that value life die in such large numbers for a specific cause makes me wonder what happened back 2000 years ago. I don't agree with the progression you put forward. I think there was more to what happened than just a newer friendlier diety. I think the Christians of that time were strong and very credible witnesses. They were able to convince people of the validity and truth of what they were teaching. Revealation of truth also is strong factor in the belief of Christians. Those that study the Bible and Christian teaching and grow in thier faith, and are faithful to the teaching, start to see changes in thier lives and start to reap the fruits of seeds they have sewn. Suddenly a world that did n't make any sense, or have any purpose, begins to make more sense give you a purpose for living. I think alot of people picture Christians as TV evangilists, and door to door religion peddlers, which isn't correct.The best Christians can be recongnized by their behavior, not by their words, or church attendence. They are charitable, friendly, comfortbale in thier own skin, but at the same time very sincerely humble. They are selfless, hard workers. They are picked out to settle disputes or be mediaters because they are fairminded and just. If you attended several Christian conventions this year, you wouldn't find alot of the kind of Christian I described in the previous paragraph but you would find a few fairly close. You will however find these kinds of people in everyday life if you look hard enough. They won't be bringing attention to themselves or nesasarily be in higher postions in their jobs. They will be living quiet lives under the radar of most of society.

[crowTrobot 2]

Revealation of truth also is strong factor in the belief of Christians. Those that study the Bible and Christian teaching and grow in thier faith, and are faithful to the teaching, start to see changes in thier lives and start to reap the fruits of seeds they have sewn. Suddenly a world that did n't make any sense, or have any purpose, begins to make more sense give you a purpose for living.

in other words christianity is like any other religion or cult.

The best Christians can be recongnized by their behavior, not by their words, or church attendence. They are charitable, friendly, comfortbale in thier own skin, but at the same time very sincerely humble. They are selfless, hard workers. They are picked out to settle disputes or be mediaters because they are fairminded and just.

i know more non-christians that are like that than christians, and i know a lot of christians. what's your point?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

in other words christianity is like any other religion or cult.i know more non-christians that are like that than christians, and i know a lot of christians. what's your point?

My point was that despite the large number of people that call themselves Christians, there are alot fewer that are actually mature Christians, and you won't find them in places you might think, like chuch leadership, ect. Most of the secularists I know would not would not get close to living up to the standards I described, although they are definately out there.If you are talking about nonchristians, meaning not secularists but other religous peoples, Hindu, Buhhdist, ect. Unfortunately, I would have to agree that most so called Christians don't measure up.

[WrongWay 0]

I admittingly don't know anything at all about the beliefs of Buddhists. Again though, this action seems suicidal to me.[clip] Commiting suicide for most any reason shows a lack of respect for life.

Buddhism is a religion wihout a God. They believe in a higher reality where we eixst after we die... a spiritual place, possibly the source for the current Christian concept of Heaven. Excpet in this Heaven, you don't have to spend all your time on your knees in front of God telling him how great he is.In the buddhist afterlife, we evaluate what we've learned from our life, then choose to be reborn into a new life where we can learn something new. The point of life, therefore, is to learn as much as we can.... to become enlightened. Only after we've learned everythig and experienced everything, can we move on to higher, higher reality... nirvana.When Christians pray, they experience "God". Outer body experinces, a "presence". Buddhists meditate to cause this same biochemical reaction of shutting down the portion of the brain that keeps track of our relation to our surroundings. Buddhists experience this as one-ness with the universe.As for the philosophy of Buddhism, it places AN EXTREME respect on life. They are vegitarians, placing animal rights on par with human rights. All life is part of the living universe which they seek to become with. They go out of their way to avoid killing any animal, even bugs. They believe in carma. There are 2 energies in the world, good and bad. Whatever you do sends out energy to the universe, and it will be echoed back to you. Killing a bug sends out bad energy, and bad energy would come back to you.Sort of the untimate embodiment of the Golden Rule. Be good, and goodness will come to you. Be bad, and badness will come to you.They would never go to war or commit murder as this would be the ultimate negative energy that would surely come back to them....In many places their religion has been outlawed because it is hard to make someone loyal to the nation when they believe that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do. Nations like to use religion to control people, not to make them uncontrolable.So, let's say that you beleive doing harm to others will do great harm to you in your search for ultimate enlightenment..... But if you die, you'll be reborn. And if die for a good cause, and your death does good by drawing attention to how your religion is being persecuted, then you take a huge leap forward towards enlightenment, and the positive carma of doing good is likely to follow you into your next life....Poof, a false belief system where people die for their beliefs.

but seeing people that value life die in such large numbers for a specific cause makes me wonder what happened back 2000 years ago. I don't agree with the progression you put forward. I think there was more to what happened than just a newer friendlier diety.

People are willing to die for all kinds of causes... especially if they are being dominated by a very brutal, totalitarian dictatorship. I know you disagree that this is how Christianity was founded, but you've provided no objective evidence to support your belief. You are trying to explain and justify your belief, but not trying to provide reason for it.My grandparents were Baptists and I went to church with them many times. My ex-wife was Catholic and I went to church with her hundreds of times. I've also attended many other churches.They all believe just as strongly as you, and they are all wrong for exactly the same reason you are. They use small scraps of non-evidence to justify their beliefs while ignoring the mountain of evidence that shows they are wrong.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Buddhism is a religion wihout a God. They believe in a higher reality where we eixst after we die... a spiritual place, possibly the source for the current Christian concept of Heaven. Excpet in this Heaven, you don't have to spend all your time on your knees in front of God telling him how great he is.In the buddhist afterlife, we evaluate what we've learned from our life, then choose to be reborn into a new life where we can learn something new. The point of life, therefore, is to learn as much as we can.... to become enlightened. Only after we've learned everythig and experienced everything, can we move on to higher, higher reality... nirvana.When Christians pray, they experience "God". Outer body experinces, a "presence". Buddhists meditate to cause this same biochemical reaction of shutting down the portion of the brain that keeps track of our relation to our surroundings. Buddhists experience this as one-ness with the universe.As for the philosophy of Buddhism, it places AN EXTREME respect on life. They are vegitarians, placing animal rights on par with human rights. All life is part of the living universe which they seek to become with. They go out of their way to avoid killing any animal, even bugs. They believe in carma. There are 2 energies in the world, good and bad. Whatever you do sends out energy to the universe, and it will be echoed back to you. Killing a bug sends out bad energy, and bad energy would come back to you.Sort of the untimate embodiment of the Golden Rule. Be good, and goodness will come to you. Be bad, and badness will come to you.They would never go to war or commit murder as this would be the ultimate negative energy that would surely come back to them....In many places their religion has been outlawed because it is hard to make someone loyal to the nation when they believe that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do. Nations like to use religion to control people, not to make them uncontrolable.So, let's say that you beleive doing harm to others will do great harm to you in your search for ultimate enlightenment..... But if you die, you'll be reborn. And if die for a good cause, and your death does good by drawing attention to how your religion is being persecuted, then you take a huge leap forward towards enlightenment, and the positive carma of doing good is likely to follow you into your next life....Poof, a false belief system where people die for their beliefs.People are willing to die for all kinds of causes... especially if they are being dominated by a very brutal, totalitarian dictatorship. I know you disagree that this is how Christianity was founded, but you've provided no objective evidence to support your belief. You are trying to explain and justify your belief, but not trying to provide reason for it.My grandparents were Baptists and I went to church with them many times. My ex-wife was Catholic and I went to church with her hundreds of times. I've also attended many other churches.They all believe just as strongly as you, and they are all wrong for exactly the same reason you are. They use small scraps of non-evidence to justify their beliefs while ignoring the mountain of evidence that shows they are wrong.

Ok, I believe you have said that it is impossible to prove the existance of God. You say that there is no objective evidence to support belief in Christianity. Ok, lets say you are right, there is no objective evidence. What could be another reason people believe so strongly besides "small scraps of non-evidence."

[WrongWay 0]

Ok, I believe you have said that it is impossible to prove the existance of God. You say that there is no objective evidence to support belief in Christianity. Ok, lets say you are right, there is no objective evidence. What could be another reason people believe so strongly besides "small scraps of non-evidence."

Same reason they once believed in Zeus and Oden. Same reason some believe in the Christian God while others believe in other gods. Same reason their is racism and bigotry.Same reason that people believe in ghosts and UFOs.Same reason some people have a lucky shirt, and others won't leave their house on Friday the 13th.The key to human intelligence is the creation of patterns.... expectations... filters we use to process all data that comes to us. We ALL do it.Once we've created a pattern, whether through personal experience or from socieity or having it taught to us by our parrents, it is natural human nature to strengthen that patern... that belief. Data that fits, strengthens the belief. Data that dos not fit, gets easily tossed away.This is human nature. EVERY society that has ever existed has had superstitions and beliefs. Many hold these beliefs so strongly that they are willing to die or kill for them.Science is a method that we have discoverd that allows us to break free of these patterns, and discover truth. It requires constant re-evaluation of all beliefs against all available data. It seeks to filter out human expectaion and desire. It seeks to eliminate the basic human flaw... the ability to hold false beliefs, and hold them strongly. It forces us to look at all the data, toss out beliefs that don't fit, modify beliefs that seem to be off, and test all new ideas.Become a free thinker. Reject all mythology and folklore. Question everything. Accept that we can't know anything for sure, but that we can know soe things with a high degree of probability. That only through constant reverfication of ALL beliefs can we hope to rise above false beliefs.

[Loismustdie 0]

WHAT? How was she able to accomplish so much? She was 17, 18 yr old peasant girl from the country( and psychotic according to you and others) yet was able to singlehandedly influence a change in the landscape of history. Because she was intelligent? How was she able to convince people she was for real? You guys are quick to dismiss things as common folly, which in fact are rare, selfless, acts of heroism. These people ( at least most ) were not suicidal, they didn't want to die, but they did, and not as soldiers, but of their free will. Many of the martyrs could have lived had they cursed Jesus. If they were just trying to stand up to tyrannical rule, they could have denied their Christianity, regrouped and lived to fight another day.

Yeah, Joan of Arc was most definitely outy of her gourd. Next.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

This is human nature. EVERY society that has ever existed has had superstitions and beliefs. Many hold these beliefs so strongly that they are willing to die or kill for them..

Not on the same scale as Christians throughout most of history.

[crowTrobot 2]

Not on the same scale as Christians throughout most of history.

you should study history more, starting with how much fun it was to be a muslim during the crusades.

[WrongWay 0]

Not on the same scale as Christians throughout most of history.

Sorry, but you are wrong.There is nothing special about Christianity. It is just a run of the mill, regular old, ancient mythology...Okay, it is special, as in "short bus" or those other Olympics kind of special, but not any more or less so than any other mythology.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Sorry, but you are wrong.There is nothing special about Christianity. It is just a run of the mill, regular old, ancient mythology...Okay, it is special, as in "short bus" or those other Olympics kind of special, but not any more or less so than any other mythology.

Maybe, but this is the Christian short bus.http://home.austin.rr.com/bmw540i/retard%20bus.jpg