Feeling Frisky With 99

[Sysvr4 0]

2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is BB with [9s], [9h]. UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.Flop: (10 SB) [3h], [6h], [8d] (5 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP raises, Button folds, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP calls, SB calls.Turn: (11 BB) [Qd] (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP calls, SB calls.River: (14 BB) [4c] (3 players)SB checks, Hero bets...Reads: It was a 100 hand session during lunch yesterday. No reads, but noone at the table impressed me much. Most of these guys were 40/5/1 type players.As I was playing this hand I'm saying to myself... that can't be right. Was I right? What's your line?More specifically... I was looking for a way to better protect my hand from the flop on. Let's focus on that.Secondarily, anyone not bet the turn or river?Jeff

[AlphaOmega 0]

Looks fine.We can't really protect our hand since the pot is big, so I think we should just be focusing on how to get the most value from overcard/flush/something draws, which I think you did.We have to bet the turn and the river. On the turn, we can't give free cards to flush draws and we may still have the best hand and lose value from 8x. On the river, the pot is so big that a ton of worse hands are calling, so we miss value there too. I have a feeling you got raised by a rivered two-pair/straight though.

[CoranMoran 0]

Preflop Raise:* The entire table is involved in the hand.So I don't think our raise will be giving us much fold equity.We will likely have to show down the best hand.* Our opponents hold 8 cards amongst them.This makes our pair of 9's very vulnerable.It is likely we will not win at showdown without improving.* We are out of position the whole way.So continuation bets may be costly.Given all this, is it still a value play to raise this preflop?I am assuming we are still willing to check-fold if the flop is bad?--cm

[screech 0]

Preflop is yuck but the rest looks good.

[Sysvr4 0]

Preflop Raise:* The entire table is involved in the hand.So I don't think our raise will be giving us much fold equity.We will likely have to show down the best hand.* Our opponents hold 8 cards amongst them.This makes our pair of 9's very vulnerable.It is likely we will not win at showdown without improving.* We are out of position the whole way.So continuation bets may be costly.Given all this, is it still a value play to raise this preflop?I am assuming we are still willing to check-fold if the flop is bad?

While PF may be debatably close, it's not what I want to focus on. But to stem the tide of PF replies, here were my thoughts on PF:1) I don't care about fold equity. I'm raising for value.2) We improve by the river 20% of the time to a set or better. I'm getting 4-1 on my raise, so without implied odds and assuming the flop doesn't destroy my hand, that looks about fair to me. 3) I don't think position matters as much with a hand like 99 as it does with, eg, KQs. It's pretty cut and dry when you have the best hand and when you don't And yes, I check/fold to multiple overs on the flop, or bet/fold depending.4) Implied odds. This is a 15BB pot by my final action on the river... on average I'd say there is at least one or two more BB in there by the end, so make it 16.5BB. If we assume that's average (possibly erroneously so, I know), I got 32-1 on my PF raise.5) I want to train people against limping on my blind.Is it close? Sure. I raise TT-AA for sure. 77-99 is obviously much closer, but as I said... I was feelin frisky.Jeff

Preflop is yuck but the rest looks good.

PF can't be more than a marginal loser, if that. You raise TT here, right? I believe the reason we raise more in this spot with higher pocket pairs is two fold:1) less chance someone has an overpair2) fewer overcards to our pairIn this case, I'm 90% certain noone has an overpair PF. As for overcards, there are 4 more of those with 99 than with TT. That's a very marginal difference in equity.So why is this "yuck" while raising with TT would be non-yuck?Jeff

[AlphaOmega 0]

Preflop is yuck but the rest looks good.

Wha? Really?We can play this profitably for set value, right? I know our position is poo-poo but we can still, as Jeff said, play this hand very easily post flop, and we'd have odds to see most turns. I know we have greater than a 20% equity too, in a big pot.Maybe screech thinks it would bloat the pot, giving most overs odds to chase you down, and when there are 4 of those types of hands, it can get scary. I think that's a legitimate counter, but still.

[screech 0]

I think TT is borderline.Whether or not you improve by the river 20% of the time is irrelevant. You're not always going to make it that far. I don't think your preflop edge is that great at all. Raising means you have a hard time protecting your hand and winning on favorable flops. So while your pf equity increases slightly, your postflop eqiuty drops.There's too much guessing involved when you build large pots OOP with mid pp's. There's no need to make poker harder than it needs to be.But yeah, it's not a huge mistake, and it's definetly not -EV. It's just slightly less EV than checking. "Yuck" was a relative term, because you played the rest of the hand so beautifully.