river check-raise-fold!

[justblaze 0]

villain is 22-15-2.54, 1k hands. competent tag. Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is SB with [Ad], [3s]. 3 folds, Hero calls.Flop: (6 SB) [Qd], [4h], [7h] (2 players)Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.Turn: (4 BB) [Ac] (2 players)Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.River: (6 BB) [4c] (2 players)Hero checks, BB bets, Hero folds.Final Pot: 11 BB

[screech 0]

Just fold that flop. I really don't like the check/call here.Edit: Nm. I think the c/r/fold here is no good. The board makes for a lot of split pots. Occassionally you might even win.

[justblaze 0]

Just fold that flop. I really don't like the check/call here.Edit: Nm. I think the c/r/fold here is no good. The board makes for a lot of split pots. Occassionally you might even win.

yea, in looking back at it the flop call is brutal.EDIT: why does this make the c/r/f bad?

[screech 0]

If this guy is a competent TAG, he will know that it is very unlikely that you have a 4 in your hand, given how the hand played out. I think he would also reason that you probably have an ace, and that your kicker is not a queen, seven or four (you would have likely raised the flop or turn with these hands).Seeing you as a decent TAG, he also does not have to worry about a monster like a full house, since you would have got more bets in earlier with such a good hand. So he can reasonably assume that you either have aces up, queen kicker, or you are on a weird delayed bluff.If villian realizes this, he may 3-bet with a splitting hand like AJ because he has nothing to lose, and half the pot to gain. He may also 3-bet something like KK/JJ because he may figure out what you are up to. While this won't happen often, it will happen against some savvy players.I would call here even if I never thought I'd ever win the whole pot. I think you will win half the pot often enough to make calling profitable.

[justblaze 0]

If this guy is a competent TAG, he will know that it is very unlikely that you have a 4 in your hand, given how the hand played out. I think he would also reason that you probably have an ace, and that your kicker is not a queen, seven or four (you would have likely raised the flop or turn with these hands).Seeing you as a decent TAG, he also does not have to worry about a monster like a full house, since you would have got more bets in earlier with such a good hand. So he can reasonably assume that you either have aces up, queen kicker, or you are on a weird delayed bluff.If villian realizes this, he may 3-bet with a splitting hand like AJ because he has nothing to lose, and half the pot to gain. He may also 3-bet something like KK/JJ because he may figure out what you are up to. While this won't happen often, it will happen against some savvy players.I would call here even if I never thought I'd ever win the whole pot. I think you will win half the pot often enough to make calling profitable.

good post. ty.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Why are you check/raising the river?I think it'd be better to bet/call.You get value from a lot of the hands that're checking behind, and i sincerely doubt that there're many hands he can have that will be bluffing. He dosent expect that if you call the turn that you're folding the river with anything that has showdown value, so it's doubtful that he's betting the river with king high. He may make a legitimate value bet with a high pocket pair, but not always - and he doesnt always call a checkraise, but he basically always calls if you lead.If there was an ace on the flop and you had no kicker, the standard line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold (or call in certain circumstances). Considering there're a lot of legitimate raises that're chops and that it's between the blinds, the bet/call is probably better.If you called the flop, you're presented with an identical situation on the turn. You dont want to slow down worse hands, but you dont want to miss value on them either.I think that if you take the check/raise line, it's tough to call a 3 bet.. and most of the calls that you get are chops anyways. If i was going to check, i'd just call.

[justblaze 0]

Why are you check/raising the river?I think it'd be better to bet/call.You get value from a lot of the hands that're checking behind, and i sincerely doubt that there're many hands he can have that will be bluffing. He dosent expect that if you call the turn that you're folding the river with anything that has showdown value, so it's doubtful that he's betting the river with king high. He may make a legitimate value bet with a high pocket pair, but not always - and he doesnt always call a checkraise, but he basically always calls if you lead.If there was an ace on the flop and you had no kicker, the standard line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold (or call in certain circumstances). Considering there're a lot of legitimate raises that're chops and that it's between the blinds, the bet/call is probably better.If you called the flop, you're presented with an identical situation on the turn. You dont want to slow down worse hands, but you dont want to miss value on them either.I think that if you take the check/raise line, it's tough to call a 3 bet.. and most of the calls that you get are chops anyways. If i was going to check, i'd just call.

actually, its impossible. this is the entire point of the line. in light of screechs comments, it seems it applied incorrectly in this situation, but the logic behind the move dictates a fold to a 3 bet.

[Abbaddabba 0]

If you're folding to a 3bet, though, i dont like raising the river. Well - that is to say, i dont like raising the river at all. I prefer to bet/call or check/call. Had the river not paired the board with the 4, i'd say bet/fold would be alright at the river.What hands does he have that calls the raise that you have beat? (as in, not a chop)I believe that a high pocket pair below the ace hypothetically would call, but at the same time i think that they would be checking behind.

[justblaze 0]

If you're folding to a 3bet, though, i dont like raising the river. Well - that is to say, i dont like raising the river at all. I prefer to bet/call or check/call. Had the river not paired the board with the 4, i'd say bet/fold would be alright at the river.What hands does he have that calls the raise that you have beat? (as in, not a chop)I believe that a high pocket pair below the ace hypothetically would call, but at the same time i think that they would be checking behind.

yes, in retrospect the move was poor because few if any worse hands will call, and many better hands will threebet.

[screech 0]

actually, its impossible. this is the entire point of the line. in light of screechs comments, it seems it applied incorrectly in this situation, but the logic behind the move dictates a fold to a 3 bet.

I actually like the c/r/3-bet line in most situations. If that queen was nine, I would like that line a lot.As is, I think I like Abbadabbas suggestion of a bet/call.

[justblaze 0]

actually, its impossible. this is the entire point of the line. in light of screechs comments, it seems it applied incorrectly in this situation, but the logic behind the move dictates a fold to a 3 bet.

I actually like the c/r/3-bet line in most situations. If that queen was nine, I would like that line a lot.As is, I think I like Abbadabbas suggestion of a bet/call.

bleh. me too.