Another view on Pollock dinner

[Jonesy 0]

I read Daniel's post on this and comments from others like Harry D. It seems to me Daniel is advancing the interests of Daniel (and other millionaires) for whom a $10K buyin is nothing, and who so easily put down the $1500 buyin events. For many, $1500 is alot for a buyin.And more importantly, why do we have to pay 9% juice and all buyins to Harrah's when ESPN is making millions off OUR money? Note that Harrah's is raising it from 8% to 9% for 1500 buyin events. Should not ESPN at least pay the juice for televised events like the WSOP? How about advancing that cause for ALL players, Daniel? We would all be grateful to you for that.Don't get me wrong, I agree with Daniel that other events like SHOE should not disappear from WSOP, and I greatly respect Daniel's abilities, and even more his being a so-called ambassador of poker, always friendly to newbies. But I feel Harrah's and ESPN is so much taking advantage of the smaller players who dream to play in any small WSOP event and $1,500 may be alot for them.Daniel, I would very much appreciate your comments, particularly in regards to the 9% juice. Thanks.Jonesy

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I DID talk to him about the juice. In fact, in most of our discussion I was looking out for the best interest of "the little guy," if you will. Having said that, the WSOP is SUPPOSED to be special. It is supposed to be the biggest, the best, and most prestigious event out there. The buy ins have ALWAYS had something to do with that. Today, the average buy in at the WSOP is smaller than some other tourneys on the circuit. Years ago, there was maybe one or two $2000 buy ins, and that's it. Now we are down to $1500 every other day, and if we aren't careful, you'd be seeing the 16,800 player fields in the $100 buy in event where they charge even more juice. The smaller events is where they charge MORE juice as you said. That's not a good thing for the players at all.

[Oziumrules 0]

I DID talk to him about the juice. In fact, in most of our discussion I was looking out for the best interest of "the little guy," if you will. Having said that, the WSOP is SUPPOSED to be special. It is supposed to be the biggest, the best, and most prestigious event out there. The buy ins have ALWAYS had something to do with that. Today, the average buy in at the WSOP is smaller than some other tourneys on the circuit. Years ago, there was maybe one or two $2000 buy ins, and that's it. Now we are down to $1500 every other day, and if we aren't careful, you'd be seeing the 16,800 player fields in the $100 buy in event where they charge even more juice. The smaller events is where they charge MORE juice as you said. That's not a good thing for the players at all.

The 9% juice is ridiculous! The WSOP is a corporation now and they will suck every ounce of blood out of it. Its quite unfortunate.

[Jonesy 0]

Thank you very much for your reply, sir. It seems to me the players need to get organized to force no more juice at all, let ESPN pay it.I understand that many of the famous player's have interests that may diverge from the rest of us, but the casino's are so damn greedy. Juice should be the first thing to go. Any thoughts from others?

[Oziumrules 0]

I have said it before in many threads, until the Professional Poker Players form a unified body, they will continue to be bullied around. I hear they are trying to get one together so they have a voice, but until then, there crys will be on deaf ears.

[goose 0]

poker's so misguided it'd be funny if it wasn't pathetic.

[doublesuited 0]

I DID talk to him about the juice.  In fact, in most of our discussion I was looking out for the best interest of "the little guy," if you will.  Having said that, the WSOP is SUPPOSED to be special.  It is supposed to be the biggest, the best, and most prestigious event out there.  The buy ins have ALWAYS had something to do with that.  Today, the average buy in at the WSOP is smaller than some other tourneys on the circuit.    Years ago, there was maybe one or two $2000 buy ins, and that's it.  Now we are down to $1500 every other day, and if we aren't careful, you'd be seeing the 16,800 player fields in the $100 buy in event where they charge even more juice.  The smaller events is where they charge MORE juice as you said.  That's not a good thing for the players at all.

Regardless 9% is too much. I remember in one of the small ones I was next to huck seed when they announced the payout structure in a single day event and he said "No way does this event take 250K to run"

[pokerhoney28 0]

I am such a newbie, still learning so much lingo- Hehe but what is juice?

[bluffmore 0]

I am sick and tired of being cheated, used, exploited and screwed over!!It should be quite evident to any pokerplayer who participates in any televised event that we are being ROBBED! The question is, and have been for quite a while, does anybody have the guts and willpower to do something about it. So far we have unfortunately seen only few and scattered attempts. Paul Phillips has apparently taken a step, according to his own blog, and is not playing (much) anymore! This, of course, is an action, that if followed by all other famous players, combined with a STRATEGIC PLAN to work with the companies that hold televised events, such that we players get a SAY and a PAY for the entertainmentthat we provide to the TV audience, and that we are PAYING for, would work. The whole scenario of us paying entry fees AND juice, and getting NOTHING back, is so ludicrous that Harrah's, ESPN, The WPT and others who are exploiting us, must be LAUGHING at us!! Poker MUST be the only professional sporting event in the world where the players have NO SAY on RULES or REGULATIONS! Even better yet, let's create our own Poker Tour akin to the ATP or other professional sporting circuits where the players pay nothing to participate, is HEAVILY INVOLVED in decisions pertaining to their sport, AND make millions of Dollars playing, not to speak of the millions they make from endorsements! Louis Asmo had the right idea, but the wrong execution when he tried this at The Orleans about a year ago. The venue was wrong, no big name players was behind it etc. There have been other efforts to gather momentum towards a player ruled tour, but they have all been too unorganized. It is EVIDENT that nobody wants to watch poker on TV, unless the big names perform! This was most recently proven by the fact that Harrah's "invited" Phil, Johnny and Doyle to the TOC. Even though this event certainly already had it's fair share of well-known players, Harrah's and ESPN was obviously scared that this wasn't enough. I was really happy to see Daniel's blog surrounding this atrocity.I thought, for as brief moment, that this might spur renewed concerted efforts. However, his more than justified dissatisfaction quickly fell apart after his dinner with Mr. Pollack! Too bad! Daniel, LET'S NOT FORGET!Creating a player tour or at least having a governing influence on the existing televised tours and split the profit, is not only possible, but should be inevitable if all the big-name players could unite and, for a moment, set their own individual interests aside! It is, unfortunately, clear that all the famous players are scrambling to scrape up endorsements and sponsor deals wherever they can. Therefore I say again: UNITE, AND LET"S GET IT ON!!!Daniel, I have no doubt that you could be a front runner, now ante upand do it. Although we all know that YOU may not suffer financially by NOT doing it right now, please take a step back and look at the potential good it would do for the game, it's players and the money in the long run!Please excuse any grammatical errors, as English is my second language,but I'm pretty sure you have gotten my drift!Players, please respond and react, and let's get something done![/b][/i]

[JGinLV 0]

I for one whole-heartedly concur with the ideas behind DN"s conversation with Pollack and many of the suggestions mentioned before this. It is time for poker players to take a stand and stop the ever-growing juice increases, lack of pay for professionals, etc. Casino's, live cardrooms, and online cardrooms, across the country are making millions off the recent explosion in popularity of poker and very few players are making anything back, no offense meant towards anybody that is, more power to you :-) Now, in order to take a stand there are issues that need to be addressed, and I will probably get flamed but these questions need answering because people are going to ask when the time does come that poker pros and amateurs take a stand. #1. What about where poker is illegal? Yes, I know people still play but they're going to want their share and until there is a universal standard on the laws, forward movement is going to be an issue.#2. It is agreed that pros should have salaries but who pays that salary? Should it be a percentage of the rake, the prizepool, endorsements, or something else?#3. Who is going to regulate the Professional Poker Association or whatever comes to be? Should be it be done by the pros? Do the players form a board or union (That's hopefully unlike the NHL) ? One commissioner voted on by all? #4. IMO: Right now there's too many different brands. Every week a new poker TV show, series, online room, etc. arrives on the scene. Too many different egos trying to get their share of the market. If this does happen does it not make sense to join forces and combine shared revenues instead of slitting their own wrists competing with each other? #5. Then how do you define professional? Most professionals in other sports are defined by their skills and abilities. And granted there are certainly people out there who are way more skilled than others, but the intertwinement between amateurs and professionals that occurs in poker does not happen in the other sports. If you're not a pro, you don't just buy your way into the superbowl or world series. So does there need to be a seperation between the pros and amateurs in order for this to happen? And again, if there is, (personally I think this is a necessity for pros to get paid to play) how do you decide who goes pro? Do we start little league poker programs, that run through college, and eventually into a draft for the PPA? I'm sure there are many other issues to be discussed, but I feel these are good starting topics. Again, I am in no way trying to be a smart a** in any of these questions/comments as I totally agree that there should be professional reimbursement and/or salaries. Any thoughts?

[bav 0]

I am sick and tired of being cheated, used, exploited and screwed over!!It should be quite evident to any pokerplayer who participates in any televised event that we are being ROBBED! ...Players, please respond and react, and let's get something done![/b][/i]

OK... Let's keep it in perspective. For SOME players, TV is the best thing that ever happened to them. The name-brand players all have endorsements, TV commercials, various commercial ventures going... all because of TV. They have not been robbed. TV has made them FAR wealthier than ever they would have been by turning them into celebrities able to trade on their name and face. It's been a win-win for the best known of the pros.It's the rest of the also-rans who have more of an axe to grind. But really...few people want to tune into the WPT and see 6 new amateur faces they've never seen before play. So I'm not so sure anybody REALLY has room to whine terribly much about TV not paying their way. Why do you think the TOC suddenly decided to add 3 paid pros to the field at the last minute? I'm sure they looked at the field, decided there was no star power, and ran out and recruited well-known faces to try to be sure they'd have TV drawing power.Now... as for whether the vig is too high, that's a different sorta debate. I see some signs of competition for that in Vegas... Wynn has weekly $300 and $500 tourneys now with slightly smaller juice than Bellagio and Mirage. Let's hope they start a price war.

[bluffmore 0]

Mike Matusow was the ONLY name among the last 9 players at this year's WSOP! ESPN is still airing the final table over and over again, which, of course means, that they have plenty of advertisers for these showings, which in turn shows that there are plenty of viewers. ESPN and Harrah's are making an absolute FORTUNE, WE are paying for the whole party and getting NOTHING back. Do you think famous baseball and basketball players would play for free even if they got endorsements. I think not!!