learn me to play ajo here (nano lhe)

[Roughness 0]

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J:diamond:, A:club:. MP3 posts a blind of $0.25. UTG calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (7 SB) J:spade:, 2:heart:, A:heart: (7 players)SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Button calls.Turn: (5.50 BB) 6:diamond: (4 players)SB bets, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls.River: (21.50 BB) 5:heart: (4 players)SB bets, UTG folds, Hero calls, Button calls.Final Pot: 24.50 BBSo, here we go. I'm pretty new to limit, and about 3/4 of the way through SSHE. There are so many concepts in it that there's no possible way for me to absorb them all right off the bat. I'm getting all mixed up, betting when I shouldn't be, raising when I should be folding and just plain screwing things up. I'll give you "my" thought process as we go along.I'm calling preflop in EP with AJo, really textbook there. Now comes the flop, bingo bango bongo. I think this is where I really misplayed the hand. During the heat of the moment, I decided that if I raised I would drive away many of those to act after me, and then on the turn I would be seen as the aggressor and be checked to likely. So I decided to call and wait until the turn to go nuts. Then came the turn, and SB bet out again, I thought that was really weird. I no longer knew if i had the best hand after that bet, it seemed so likely that he could have a set, but I didn't want to play passively. After I raised he simply calls the 3-bet, no cap. I don't think AA/JJ is a possible holding for him to consider anyone has here, since there was no raise preflop and little aggression on the flop. Therefore I think a set of twos are discounted.The 5:heart: on the river was a dagger in my heart, when SB bet out again. I knew he had to have two more in his hand, but I wasn't laying down my top 2 pair here in such a big pot. Can someone give me advice on a hand like this? Did I play it decently or pathetically? I'm in such a rut today that it hurts, down 70BB in 6xx hands. I'm playing hands upside down and inside out sometimes, and it's costing me money. Oddly enough though, I think I'm playing OK on average, maybe too passively. I just don't think a swing like that can be variance, moreso bad play or a combination of both. I just think repairing hands like this will help the learning process, and also the recovery process.

[Don Giovanni 0]

i didnt read that big paragraph you wrote but raise preflop and raise that flop.

[No_Neck 0]

follow the advice above, it is good

[Roughness 0]

Ok I agree with raising the flop, 110%, that was a stupid move. I'm not sure if I'm to agree with the preflop raise? SSHE really strongly states that AJo isnt a raising hand in EP/MP, is this situation different? Is my turn and river play ok?

[No_Neck 0]

what about check raising the flop?

[akishore 0]

the hand is fine.raising preflop is optional.waiting for the turn to raise is better than raising the flop here, mostly because you have four players to act behind you but only two ahead of you.note that it's better to wait for the turn even if you raised preflop. if you raise preflop, the pot will be big, so you'd think you want to protect your hand immediately, but a flop raise in that big pot doesn't protect efficiently--waiting for the turn to raise protects much more efficiently.the river is correct. this is a borderline raise if SB is a frequent bluffer, but button isn't folding any better hand and you obviously don't want him to fold worse hands.so, nice hand.aseem

[akishore 0]

Ok I agree with raising the flop, 110%, that was a stupid move.

no. it wasn't.

I'm not sure if I'm to agree with the preflop raise? SSHE really strongly states that AJo isnt a raising hand in EP/MP, is this situation different?

it's mostly about game conditions, and also your own postflop play versus your opponents' postflop play.if you are unsure, i would err on the side of calling. ironically, ed miller argues in his other book, "getting started in hold 'em", that if you are unsure preflop whether to raise or call, you should actually be raising *more* as a beginner. i never understood why.aseem

[avsfan 0]

if you are unsure, i would err on the side of calling. ironically, ed miller argues in his other book, "getting started in hold 'em", that if you are unsure preflop whether to raise or call, you should actually be raising *more* as a beginner. i never understood why.aseem

Poker is a dialogue. And in any dialogoue Its better to ask the questions than answer them. When you raise you raise questions in your opponents mind . This can lead to errors on their part thus giving you the raiser an edge. Imdao.

[KDawgCometh 2]

you really need to raise this PF. AJo is a nice hand, but it doesn't play well in a big multiway pot. you want to cut down the limpers and get this hand with as few people as possible, this way you can push your equity best. by raising PF you will also be able to pick up pots UI on the flop and turnyou MUST raise the flop. any flush draw isn't gonna be folded out, but you can fold out other hands like gutshots and bdoor draws, and it cuts down on any implied odds for someone looking to peel with a PP to hit a set on the turn. you also want visibility with your hand so that you can take the lead in the pot

[Don Giovanni 0]

Ok I agree with raising the flop, 110%, that was a stupid move.

no. it wasn't.

I'm not sure if I'm to agree with the preflop raise? SSHE really strongly states that AJo isnt a raising hand in EP/MP, is this situation different?

it's mostly about game conditions, and also your own postflop play versus your opponents' postflop play.if you are unsure, i would err on the side of calling. ironically, ed miller argues in his other book, "getting started in hold 'em", that if you are unsure preflop whether to raise or call, you should actually be raising *more* as a beginner. i never understood why.aseem

he should be raising AJ off everytime in this game.and that would have changed how the rest of the hand played out.

[Don Giovanni 0]

you really need to raise this PF. AJo is a nice hand, but it doesn't play well in a big multiway pot. you want to cut down the limpers and get this hand with as few people as possible, this way you can push your equity best. by raising PF you will also be able to pick up pots UI on the flop and turnyou MUST raise the flop. any flush draw isn't gonna be folded out, but you can fold out other hands like gutshots and bdoor draws, and it cuts down on any implied odds for someone looking to peel with a PP to hit a set on the turn. you also want visibility with your hand so that you can take the lead in the pot

this is all exactly what i was thinking.

[akishore 0]

he should be raising AJ off everytime in this game.and that would have changed how the rest of the hand played out.

it's obviously not 100% clear and standard and absolutely correct if ed miller doesn't raise it there.fwiw, i do raise it.but, i don't think it's that big of a deal if you limp, and limping might even have higher EV under some conditions.aseem

[KDawgCometh 2]

it's obviously not 100% clear and standard and absolutely correct if ed miller doesn't raise it there.

as someone who has communicated with ed, I know for a fact that he's raising here PF and would do it everytime in this situation, and he's raising the flop too. The OP didn't play this hand fine, so don't be tring to tell him that he did, seriously

[akishore 0]

yeah, my mistake on the flop. it should be raised.i'll believe you on the preflop.aseem

[Mattnxtc 0]

haha i was about to question ur play all together aseem when u said to just call the flop haha...preflop is usually a raiseflop has to be raise rest plays alright though i would have slowed down on the turn fearing im facing a set but thats just me...at those limits the villian could have bottom 2 and think he has the nuts

[akishore 0]

haha i was about to question ur play all together aseem when u said to just call the flop haha...

i mistakenly did the math too fast and thought a flop raise still gives gutshots odds to call profitably.i think i was thinking of the pot if you had raised preflop. then, the pot will be 14 sb, and a gutshot can call two cold profitably, so then i believe waiting for the turn is more effective.aseem