Pedro A Hall Of Famer?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

What's with old men, and their fear of statistics. I was talking to my old man about this debate, because I wanted to tell him Hank Aaron's quote about Gibson (Gibson being one of my dad's all time favorites). And I prefaced it by talking about the Tommy John radio show ( Tommy John also being one of my dad's favorites). and how he was saying all these players shouldnt' be in the hall of fame, essentially because they have less wins than him, and he's not in the hall of fame. and Pops said " well, he's got a point there, you know" and I said are you kidding me, John wasn't in the same zip code as Pedro, that their peaks aren't even close, and the crazy old bastard started getting angry, saying that "I Saw john, and you didn't" and I say " no, I don't htink you understand, I have stats to back it up, I can show you right now" trying to explain how other worldly dominant Pedro was, and he just got angrier and angier and said " well, you can have your opinion" and ended the conversation before I could even get to the Aaron quote. If my dad was a sports writer, apparently mark him down for a "no" on pedro. My dad's a fcking idiot.

[PMJackson21 0]

If my dad was a sports writer, apparently mark him down for a "no" on pedro. My dad's a fcking idiot.

Heh, you should have seen the face my dad made when I told him statistically Martinez has a good case for being the most dominant of all time. Blasphemy obviously for someone that grew up in La in the 60s.It also took a few months of me constantly harping on the subject for him to come to realize Juan Pierre is useless.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Heh, you should have seen the face my dad made when I told him statistically Martinez has a good case for being the most dominant of all time. Blasphemy obviously for someone that grew up in La in the 60s.It also took a few months of me constantly harping on the subject for him to come to realize Juan Pierre is useless.

okay, but the Koufax/Pedro debate I can wrap my head around, I mean with 3000 years of beauitful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax, it's goddamn understandable to be living in the past.. but... .. the John/Pedro debate makes my dad a fcking idiot.

[Solodell 0]

Heh, you should have seen the face my dad made when I told him statistically Martinez has a good case for being the most dominant of all time. Blasphemy obviously for someone that grew up in La in the 60s.It also took a few months of me constantly harping on the subject for him to come to realize Juan Pierre is useless.

Well, you should've realized then you couldn't reason with him. Anyone should be able to reasonably see that.

[Jackets1407 0]

Koufax' ERA was better at home but his winning percentage was the same on the roadThey asked Bob Gibson about whether he thought the steroid era hitting stats were bogusand he said he thought all hitting stats were bogus after the lowered the mound after the year his era was like 1.12 - 68 i thinkIt wouldn't matter if Gibson were 97 - he's not to be ****ed with - he's one bad MF

Not irrelevant at all...The lowering of the mound has been no question the biggest difference in hitting vs pitching rather than steroids.You have less control over all of your pitches....please someone that has actually picthed before confirm this for me (and I pitched in HS and college)...I would much rather face a roided ****** (sorry for the language) from a higher mound than an average player today.

[fleung22 1]

okay, but the Koufax/Pedro debate I can wrap my head around, I mean with 3000 years of beauitful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax, it's goddamn understandable to be living in the past.. but... .. the John/Pedro debate makes my dad a fcking idiot.

wow that's harsheither that or you're REALLY working hard just to get another 1-star vote from your pops

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

wow that's harsheither that or you're REALLY working hard just to get another 1-star vote from your pops

sorry, but I calls em like i sees em, and the way my dad judges ball players is idiotic, ie by feelings, his gut, and sentimentality.

[AmScray 355]

Anyone think Andre Dawson will get in?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Anyone think Andre Dawson will get in?

No.. I Grew up being a huge hawk fan, I loved him as soon as he signed with the cubs ( For 500k, about 20 percent of his market at the time) just because he wanted to play on the grass of chicago. However, his OPS is really low for an HoFer. He was a great fielder, one of the all time great arms, great power numbers preceding the steriod era, stole quite a few bases in Montreal before his knees wentbut he had a terrible on base percentage. If he had played in a big market instead of the expos early in his career, like say the Yankees or his whole career wit hthe cubs, or something, I think there would be more clamoring for him in. As it is, I think he'll be a bubble boy, unless there is a huge "anti-steroid" backlash vote, since he was/is assumed to be clean. It also doesn't help that he was such a surly bastard. Personally, I'd love to see him in, but if his name was Robert Bobson, and played for the Twins, I would never consider him for the hall.

[AmScray 355]

Can any of the stat gurus compare some of his key fielding statistics to other "defensive oriented" HOF'ers, or at least, the league average?As far as him being surly, he just looked mean (which he did- one of the meaner looking SOB's I've ever seen) but by all accounts, he was a great guy. Per Wikipedia, Ryne Sandberg (one of my all time faves) menstruated during his induction speech about how Dawson should be in.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Can any of the stat gurus compare some of his key fielding statistics to other "defensive oriented" HOF'ers, or at least, the league average?As far as him being surly, he just looked mean (which he did- one of the meaner looking SOB's I've ever seen) but by all accounts, he was a great guy. Per Wikipedia, Ryne Sandberg (one of my all time faves) menstruated during his induction speech about how Dawson should be in.

Well, when I got his autograph, he seemed really nice.. but then, he also went nuts that one time, and tossed all those bats on the field..Do you remember, In 88 or 89 or so, when he got beaned in the face by that one padre pitcher( Eric Chow?) it looked so horrid, he got dropped.. and for a couple seconds, I thought he was dead, it looked so grusome.. then, he just jumped up, and I've never seen anyone look so angry, he just looked possessed....I would love to know what dawson's defensive stats were like. He was a great fielder, and had a Bo Jackson-esque throwing arm. His 323 OBP is probably what's going to keep him out.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Can any of the stat gurus compare some of his key fielding statistics to other "defensive oriented" HOF'ers, or at least, the league average?As far as him being surly, he just looked mean (which he did- one of the meaner looking SOB's I've ever seen) but by all accounts, he was a great guy. Per Wikipedia, Ryne Sandberg (one of my all time faves) menstruated during his induction speech about how Dawson should be in.

Dawson was a pretty good CF when he played there, but was waaay below average in the corner spots for his career. That was FRAA, though, and I'm not totally sure how accurate that is.Regardless, his OBP was so low as to make the question irrelevant, at least as far as his HOF candidacy is concerned. People think highly of Andre Dawson because he was perceived as fearless, selfless warrior who played on gimpy knees. Laudable, but largely irrelevant, at least in my eyes. You know who should be in the Hall of Fame? Lou Whitaker and Alan Trammel. If Visquel gets in I'll be furious.Wang

[Steve Holt 0]

How about a real debate instead of obvious HOFersMike Mussina. Discuss

[Shimmering Wang 1]

How about a real debate instead of obvious HOFersMike Mussina. Discuss

I think Mussina has as much a case as Schilling. Mussina's peak wasn't as high, and Schilling had more REALLY GOOD years, but Moose was much more consistent. Moose gave you 8 Wins Above Replacement every year for a decade, it seems like, but only had a single 10WARP year. Schilling had four 10WARP years, but had injury problems that limited his effectiveness. Mussina threw 220 innings almost every year. Moose gets in, whether he deserves it or not

[Steve Holt 0]

I think Mussina has as much a case as Schilling. Mussina's peak wasn't as high, and Schilling had more REALLY GOOD years, but Moose was much more consistent. Moose gave you 8 Wins Above Replacement every year for a decade, it seems like, but only had a single 10WARP year. Schilling had four 10WARP years, but had injury problems that limited his effectiveness. Mussina threw 220 innings almost every year. Moose gets in, whether he deserves it or not

Do you think Roy Halladay could be a HOF? Obviously needs more years but pitches deep all the time.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Do you think Roy Halladay could be a HOF? Obviously needs more years but pitches deep all the time.

If he pitches with effectiveness up until he's 40? Maybe. Halladay is one of the real horses, and I think there's value in that. Some of the innings he throws are super-valuable, since that's 50 fewer you need from your worst pitchers, your back-line bullpen (but WARP should account for that, since your back-line is, by definition, your replacement level pitcher). That being said, however, he's only had 4 really good years including this one, so he'd better be a Cy Young contender from now until he's 35-37 if he wants to have shot. At this point, his career doesn't really compare to Mussina's.

[PMJackson21 0]

If Visquel gets in I'll be furious.

Everyone I have heard comment on this in the media (not just local SF homers) say he is a definite, and quite possibly first ballot.I am unconvinced, but I am also hesitant to give any Giant not named Willie (both) or Barry first ballot consideration.

[El Guapo 8]

Everyone I have heard comment on this in the media (not just local SF homers) say he is a definite, and quite possibly first ballot.I am unconvinced, but I am also hesitant to give any Giant not named Willie (both) or Barry first ballot consideration.

Seriously people are Saying Omar Visquel is a first time ballot HOF? Where?

[PMJackson21 0]

Seriously people are Saying Omar Visquel is a first time ballot HOF? Where?

I heard someone (I'd be guessing if I said whom, but IIRC it was a current HoFer) on Dan Patrick the other day talking about different canidates, and he was one that they both felt was a sure thing. They compared him to Ozzie Smith etc. Plus, hard to keep the guy with the most games played at SS ever out.Then, if you listen to KNBR ever, they will tell you just how great he is. That Michael Urban guy did a show on it a few weeks/months back and was practically foaming at the mouth.I think if Omar gets in it should be on the strength of his musical abilities. http://www.amazon.com/Music-Recordings-Lea...s/dp/B0009INJ24Omar Vizquel (San Francisco Giants): Vocals & Drums on The Goo Goo Dolls "Broadway"

[El Guapo 8]

I am not saying he shouldn't be a HOFer, his fielding is arguably the best ever, but first ballot is a reach.

[PMJackson21 0]

I am not saying he shouldn't be a HOFer, his fielding is arguably the best ever, but first ballot is a reach.

I agree but sportswriters aren't as picky as they used to be re: first ballot, and he is generally well liked (besides Jose Mesa). If Ozzie got in as a first ballot, Omar arguably deserves to get in then as well, considering he has better stats across the board (outside of SBs).Sigh, I can't believe I'm making the case for a Giant....To be honest, I already looked into this a lot because when I heard the Urban guy suggest it, I automatically thought he was a GIants homer/idiot, but in comparison to Ozzie, Omar has a legit case.

[El Guapo 8]

What you are talking about is the inherent problem with the HOF. At some point it stopped being the best players ever, and became really good players with longevity that we like.

[PMJackson21 0]

What you are talking about is the inherent problem with the HOF. At some point it stopped being the best players ever, and became really good players with longevity that we like.

Yeah, I know, but you have to play by their rules unfortunately. The media holds grudges, current HoFers hold grudges, etc.Do/did you think Ozzie Smith deserved to be a first ballot HoFer?

[El Guapo 8]

Yeah, I know, but you have to play by their rules unfortunately. The media holds grudges, current HoFers hold grudges, etc.Do/did you think Ozzie Smith deserved to be a first ballot HoFer?

Never really thought about it. Immediately, I say yes. But I have no idea what his stats are off the top of my head. You alluded to the fact that Visquel has better stats, let me go look.EDIT: As I look at the stats, I have to say no. Omar is better in pretty much ever category, including the most important ones Fielding and post season performance.

[MDXS 0]

Never really thought about it. Immediately, I say yes. But I have no idea what his stats are off the top of my head. You alluded to the fact that Visquel has better stats, let me go look.EDIT: As I look at the stats, I have to say no. Omar is better in pretty much ever category, including the most important ones Fielding and post season performance.

I did a Smith vs. Vizquel comparison here a little over a year ago:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...t&p=1955469I'd go about it a little differently now (less reliance on BP's fielding metrics for starters), but I think the conclusion is valid.EDIT: Since you edited yours...read my post and come back. Omar was WORSE in just about everything when you adjust for context...(postseason excepted...I didn't look at that)