Aa Question (tourny)

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

Ok, well first of all, I never said anywhere explicitly that going all-in PF was wrong. I just dont think it is optimal.I dont mean to put focus on "flat calling" here. What I wish to focus on in this situation is the fact that you definately should want the 4th player in this pot - however possible.If you shove all in and he calls this is good. If you flat call and he shoves and you call this is good. If you min-raise and he calls this is good. If you shove and he folds this is not ideal.Say you do shove and the CO folds. [Odds calculated below with pokerstove: AA v xRandom hands involved in Pot]Your AA holds a 70.7% chance of winning against two random hands.The pot here is 2,900 + 4,900 + 4,900 + 1,200 = 13,900.This is a solid option no doubt.But, on the other hand, lets say you get the CO in the hand and all the chips go in (whether you manage this preflop or on the flop)Main Pot = 2,900 +4,900 + 4,900 + 4,900 = 17,600Side Pot = 9,100 + 9,100 = 18, 200Your AA holds a 61% chance now of winning the main pot. I imagine this is where all of the donkeyviews of me are coming from. Inviting the 4th player in drastically reduces your chance of winning the pot by nearly 10%. But, look at what it does for you in terms of the side pot. Your AA has an 85% chance of winning the larger side pot.I agree that flat calling may be suspect because it forces you to make a bet on the flop on a potentially worrisome board so ya, if you know your opponent in the CO well enough to know he will call your shove then by all means do so. But if he is new to the table, extremely tight or unpredictable then I feel you gotta do whatever it takes to get him involved here - the edge your holding preflop with AA here is too large to not take advantage of this moment.

seriously wowlike, holy shit.Tough love time.Tough:Do you realize how many absurdly successful tournament and cash game players have posted in this thread detailing exactly why almost every single point you've made is wrong? There's easily way over a million in tournament winnings behind just the posters who are being articulate and giving you math based, logical explanations why you are looking at this from a completely and totally wrong perspective. Love:Look, everyone comes to some weird conclusions when they're relatively new to the game. Winning players and losing players. The difference is that the winning players are able to recognize when their initial perceptions may be flawed and adjust them in the face of experience or sage advice that speaks to the contrary. Either you're not reading the rest of the posts in this thread critically, or you need to put your ego aside and admit defeat. On the bright side, you're attempting to think about the game critcally. You came to some weird conclusions, but there are plenty of places that can teach you how to move your thought process in the right direction. Try the actual strategy forums here and just read for a while, then ask some questions and be open to the responses you get. If you really want to put some effort into it, join pokervt.com or another training site. If you absolutely continue to defend your initial reasoning though, you're going to get mocked FYI.

[theabyss 0]

What you seem to be ignoring, is that regardless what action you take, just the fact that you are in there should let the CO know that you have a strong hand. Out of the 3 options (ignoring fold obv), shoving all in will look the most suspect to a majority of MTT players. Flat calling looks like you want to CO in the hand, re-raising (but not shoving) will leave you with little chips and again, most players will see you as committed so there is no reason not to just shove instead. As a complete nit myself (you gave the example that a nit would fold to a shove), I am 10x as likely to pay off a shove there then a flat call.So unless you are up against one of those rare donks who will call pretty much anything pre flop, but gives a lot of respect to all in bets, shoving is the optimal play because it gives you the best chance of being paid off vs your typical MTT player. By flat calling you are giving away the strength of your hand to a good deal of players, and ultimately giving up value in the long run. I don't want the extra 3700 or whatever from the CO, I want to double up, and I think shoving is the optimal way to do this.

Thats a fair point. I tried to mention in that last post that you are making your final move based on the read you have on the CO as a player and what he is likely to do in response to your bet/call

[PMJackson21 0]

Thats a fair point. I tried to mention in that last post that you are making your final move based on the read you have on the CO as a player and what he is likely to do in response to your bet/call

True, every hand is situational to those involved. There is def a type of player where flat calling would be the optimal play against them.Like NakedCowboy said above, it's good that you are thinking about the game critically.

[theabyss 0]

seriously wowlike, holy shit.Tough love time.Tough:Do you realize how many absurdly successful tournament and cash game players have posted in this thread detailing exactly why almost every single point you've made is wrong? There's easily way over a million in tournament winnings behind just the posters who are being articulate and giving you math based, logical explanations why you are looking at this from a completely and totally wrong perspective. Love:Look, everyone comes to some weird conclusions when they're relatively new to the game. Winning players and losing players. The difference is that the winning players are able to recognize when their initial perceptions may be flawed and adjust them in the face of experience or sage advice that speaks to the contrary. Either you're not reading the rest of the posts in this thread critically, or you need to put your ego aside and admit defeat. On the bright side, you're attempting to think about the game critcally. You came to some weird conclusions, but there are plenty of places that can teach you how to move your thought process in the right direction. Try the actual strategy forums here and just read for a while, then ask some questions and be open to the responses you get. If you really want to put some effort into it, join pokervt.com or another training site. If you absolutely continue to defend your initial reasoning though, you're going to get mocked FYI.

hey, i certainly do value the points. I left this thread kinda early yesterday because i had to leave work and watch the playoffs. At that point i didnt get a lot of actual mathematical feedback refuting my opinion. Mostly what i got was mocking remarks. I dont mind people proving me wrong with facts and numbers. When i came back to the post this morning there were a lot more posts with well articulated explanations and I agreed with them for the most part and definitely appreciated them. I realize there are a lot of great players here. Thats why i read here and posted this.The thinking i am trying to impart here is a bit unconventional. Thats why i find it intriguing and why i keep defending the minority view. If you play this hand out x amount of times and try the various options presented here you might see that sometimes its good to think outside the box (more value gained here with the strange side pot circumstance). I have been reading what lots of posters have written and i do think that pushing all-in is a very good move here. Im not disputing that. But im bringing other options to light to expand traditional tactical views.

[rdtedm 0]

I remember my first post on FCP in the strat forums. I thought I was the shit because I had been winning at midstakes recently, but I really knew nothing about poker. My first post was something about 3-betting KK in position and then calling a donkshove on an A high board. I won the hand, so obviously my play was right. I think a lot of people get into this mindset. Just because something seems like it's right (and the results agree) doesn't mean it is.That aside, math purely dictates that it is +EV to shove. You can't really argue with that.

[dapokerbum 0]

I remember my first post on FCP in the strat forums. I thought I was the shit because I had been winning at midstakes recently, but I really knew nothing about poker. My first post was something about 3-betting KK in position and then calling a donkshove on an A high board. I won the hand, so obviously my play was right. I think a lot of people get into this mindset. Just because something seems like it's right (and the results agree) doesn't mean it is.That aside, math purely dictates that it is +EV to shove. You can't really argue with that.

Oh he can and he continues to

[Merby 3]

Hi guys, i've thrown this question around to friends and in other forums because I want to get different views on it. It's a hypothetical situation so the numbers are vague and don't need to be specific.Here is how it goes:_______________________________________________You are in the WSOP Main Event.You have ~14,000 chips and are UTG with AA.The blinds are 200-400.You raise 3x the bb to 1200. The next few players fold and the cutoff just calls.The button folds.SB goes all in for 2900.BB also shoves all in for 4900.The next player to act is you with only one left behind (the cutoff who called your raise). He has you covered.What do you do?________________________________________________________________________Before i hit the "post topic" button, let me add something.It's not as simple as it may first seem to be. It's very situational.I think the best thing to do is call. Consider the options carefully.thoughts?

FYP