BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I'm not going to really argue that Musial was better than Mays defensively overall, however, I think Mays is overstated and statistically speaking, it's kinda worth noting that Mays has a career .978 fielding percentage against Musials career .989.Of course, Musial played a portion of his career at 1b which can account for the higher percentage, so we have to examine their percentages in the OF (where Musial played the vast majority of his games- 1890 in the OF vs. 1016 at 1b)Mays has a career .981 FP in the OF against Musials career .984 OF/FP; basically even-steven. "The Catch", while impressive, causes people to slightly overrate Mays defensively when comparing him to Musial, especially considering the statistics. Defense is usually the push that causes people to take Mays over Musial when the stats just don't make nearly as compelling a case for Mays as people assume. Mays had that "wow" factor, because of the style he caught the ball. Many of his catches were spectacular because he got bad jumps on the ball, but was so fast that he could compensate for it, so his catches are particularly memorable. Also, Mays hitting over six hundred home runs will get people's attention. However, homeruns are overrated and musial's slugging percentage is virtually a push, even though Mays hit almost 200 more homeruns. That means Musial turned a lot of singles into doubles.. Link to post Share on other sites
MDXS 0 Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 I'm not going to really argue that Musial was better than Mays defensively overall, however, I think Mays is overstated and statistically speaking, it's kinda worth noting that Mays has a career .978 fielding percentage against Musials career .989.Of course, Musial played a portion of his career at 1b which can account for the higher percentage, so we have to examine their percentages in the OF (where Musial played the vast majority of his games- 1890 in the OF vs. 1016 at 1b)Mays has a career .981 FP in the OF against Musials career .984 OF/FP; basically even-steven. "The Catch", while impressive, causes people to slightly overrate Mays defensively when comparing him to Musial, especially considering the statistics. Defense is usually the push that causes people to take Mays over Musial when the stats just don't make nearly as compelling a case for Mays as people assume.You're mistaken. Career fielding percentage is not worth noting...especially considering the different positions they played. To quickly show how this is a non-starter, Ozzie Smith, who is as elite a fielder as you can be, has a career FP of .978 - the same as Mays. The difference between the two defensively (ignoring position, which is really, a huge deal) is that Mays got to far more balls than the average center fielder. Musial didn't. If Musial were a good fielder, they probably wouldn't have sent him down the defensive spectrum to First Base. Here's one data point:Musial Range Factor - Outfield (Mostly left - some right): 2.04League Range Factor - Outfield (Same proportion of left and right): 2.11Mays Range Factor - Outfield (mostly center): 2.57League Range Factor - Outfield : 1.91According to this, Musial got to less balls than the average outfielder. Mays got to about 30% more than the average center fielder. This is just one measure. Another, better measure is to see how these guys were rated defensively when they were playing. I'm not using one catch to rate anyone's defense. Such a statement makes me believe that I'm not posting here nearly enough these days. Yikes. Link to post Share on other sites
MDXS 0 Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 3 he's out? Arod and Jeter I guess ( but only 'cause Jeter was on the Yankees). Cal Ripken is not better than ernie banks.This Bostonian does not have Jeter in his top three. Or top 10. Wagner's far and away number one. ARod's ahead of Banks. So's Arky Vaughn. There's three. I'd put Ripken over Banks. Without digging too deep, what'd push Cal over the top is that he remained at short far longer than Banks, and when he moved positions it was to third and not to first. That switch seriously killed Banks' value. Link to post Share on other sites
AmScray 355 Posted May 24, 2008 Author Share Posted May 24, 2008 You're mistaken. Career fielding percentage is not worth noting...especially considering the different positions they played. To quickly show how this is a non-starter, Ozzie Smith, who is as elite a fielder as you can be, has a career FP of .978 - the same as Mays. The difference between the two defensively (ignoring position, which is really, a huge deal) is that Mays got to far more balls than the average center fielder. Musial didn't. If Musial were a good fielder, they probably wouldn't have sent him down the defensive spectrum to First Base. Here's one data point:Musial Range Factor - Outfield (Mostly left - some right): 2.04League Range Factor - Outfield (Same proportion of left and right): 2.11Mays Range Factor - Outfield (mostly center): 2.57League Range Factor - Outfield : 1.91According to this, Musial got to less balls than the average outfielder. Mays got to about 30% more than the average center fielder. This is just one measure. Another, better measure is to see how these guys were rated defensively when they were playing. I'm not using one catch to rate anyone's defense. Such a statement makes me believe that I'm not posting here nearly enough these days. Yikes.Outstanding points.Musials difference in range factor when compared to the league average is statistically insignificant and totally within a statistical spectrum that could be dictated by variables between teams in pitching. I do think that defensively, he 'aged faster' than Mays, which accounts for his going to 1b. By all qualitative accounts, he was a superb OF until about his mid 30's. Still, I'm not really advocating that he was superior defensively to Mays. Interesting that you note Arky Vaughn there.. I have a G/VG 1934 Goudey Arky Vaughn card that I was about this close --><-- to ebaying- I might have to reconsider Link to post Share on other sites
MDXS 0 Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Outstanding points.Musials difference in range factor when compared to the league average is statistically insignificant and totally within a statistical spectrum that could be dictated by variables between teams in pitching. I do think that defensively, he 'aged faster' than Mays, which accounts for his going to 1b. By all qualitative accounts, he was a superb OF until about his mid 30's. Still, I'm not really advocating that he was superior defensively to Mays. Interesting that you note Arky Vaughn there.. I have a G/VG 1934 Goudey Arky Vaughn card that I was about this close --><-- to ebaying- I might have to reconsider Sounds good. I'm willing to leave the discussion here. They're both awesome ball players.I've got an EX 1941 Playball Vaughan. It's one of my favorite cards (that I own). Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 This Bostonian does not have Jeter in his top three. Or top 10. Wagner's far and away number one. ARod's ahead of Banks. So's Arky Vaughn. There's three. I'd put Ripken over Banks. Without digging too deep, what'd push Cal over the top is that he remained at short far longer than Banks, and when he moved positions it was to third and not to first. That switch seriously killed Banks' value.I'm sorry, but I'm not comparing Honus Wagner to anyone.. it's hard enough to compare eras, but I refuse to even discuss anything that happened before Ruth. The game was just too different. I know zero about Arky Vaughn, so I'll take your word for it.And, um.. . Wow, Mays could really fly around the outfield. You sold me on picking Mays over Musial.. they are sufficiently close in hitting, that Mays' fielding truly was an asset. Getting to 30 percent more balls than League average is just insane. Link to post Share on other sites
AmScray 355 Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 Just bumping this because of massive faggotry I'm only now realizing exists, as far as fans understanding of poor Stanisławs actual accomplishments.Current MLB ballplayers failed to rank Musial in the top 10 living players.OK, so Bonds, ARod, Mays... Can anyone tell me how Musual isn't #4 here as far as living players? When Mastercard did that "fan vote" All Century Team in 99, Musial didn't make the top 10 of oufielders. He was the only outfielder that had to be brought on by a "special panel selection" which basically means "put there by people who really know better because the public is ****ing retarded". (Same with Honus Wagner who was outvoted by Ernie Banks, Cal Ripken and Ozzie Smith- another forced "special panel selection".)http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/limc100.shtml Link to post Share on other sites
Shimmering Wang 1 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Just bumping this because of massive faggotry I'm only now realizing exists, as far as fans understanding of poor Stanisławs actual accomplishments.Current MLB ballplayers failed to rank Musial in the top 10 living players.OK, so Bonds, ARod, Mays... Can anyone tell me how Musual isn't #4 here as far as living players? When Mastercard did that "fan vote" All Century Team in 99, Musial didn't make the top 10 of oufielders. He was the only outfielder that had to be brought on by a "special panel selection" which basically means "put there by people who really know better because the public is ****ing retarded". (Same with Honus Wagner who was outvoted by Ernie Banks, Cal Ripken and Ozzie Smith- another forced "special panel selection".)http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/limc100.shtml You can see why, as a sportsbettor, I take every opportunity I can to fade the Public. Everyone is just so stupid. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Honus Wagner is understandable, since he played before ww1.. but Stan Musial is ALIVE for fcks sake. Link to post Share on other sites
Poppy_Hillis 11 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 5 catchers taken in 77's all-time fantasy draft, and no Mike Piazza. Come on. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 5 catchers taken in 77's all-time fantasy draft, and no Mike Piazza. Come on.he'll be the worst defensive catcher in the hall of fame, that's for sure. Link to post Share on other sites
Poppy_Hillis 11 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 he'll be the worst defensive catcher in the hall of fame, that's for sure.That's a little deceiving. He was terrible at throwing runners out, but called a good game. I'd rather have the latter if forced to choose. Link to post Share on other sites
Poppy_Hillis 11 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 (Same with Honus Wagner who was outvoted by Ernie Banks, Cal Ripken and Ozzie Smith- another forced "special panel selection".)http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/limc100.shtml That makes me sick. Cal Ripken is the most overrated player in the history of sports. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 That makes me sick. Cal Ripken is the most overrated player in the history of sports.Except for brett favre. Link to post Share on other sites
Shimmering Wang 1 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 That's a little deceiving. He was terrible at throwing runners out, but called a good game. I'd rather have the latter if forced to choose.I disagree. It's a lot easier to learn to call a game than it is to learn to be a good defender. Worst case, the manager can relay pitches from the dugout, but there's no similar back-up plan for actual defense. Regardless, he was so good offensively that he's a no-brainer HOFerWang Link to post Share on other sites
Shimmering Wang 1 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Also, Cal Ripken was pretty effing awesome during the 10-year stretch from 1982-91. Remember, he was the first shortstop of his kind, really. (<--- I hear this a lot, but I'm not sure if it is true. Regardless, he was a rare breed. Link to post Share on other sites
AmScray 355 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 I like Ripken. A lot. Here's how awesome a guy Musial is...So, of course, the old players didn't make the money like the new guys. Musial is one of the last remaining "old-old timers" who actually played prior to WW2 (I think he's 87 or 88). A lot of these guys- Ted Williams, DiMaggio, Mantle and Musial, supplemented their incomes by doing the memorabilia and autograph show circuits in the 80's and 90's. During their later years, if you sent something to DiMaggio, Williams or Mantle, if you were lucky, you would get a list of show dates and prices and your stuff sent back. Most of the time, you wouldn't ever hear anything and your stuff would be gone.Musial still signs free for everyone- if you send to him, he will send you back a signed stat postcard, along with a catalog where you can order nicer signed stuff through the company his family runs... Signed balls, bats, 8X10's, whatever, but he will still send anyone that autographed stat card for nothing.And this... Musial also served one year as general manager of the Cardinals. After the 1966 season, Musial succeeded Bob Howsam as GM and the 1967 Cardinals promptly won 101 games, the NL pennant, and the 1967 World Series title. Musial then stepped down at the end of the season and was succeeded by Bing Devine.Is this accurate? Link to post Share on other sites
7s7c 0 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 5 catchers taken in 77's all-time fantasy draft, and no Mike Piazza. Come on.Speaking of which I got the #1 seed in my conference in the all-time fantasy draft (via voting system). Here is my final roster:C- Gary Carter1B - Lou Gehrig2B - Ryne Sandberg3B - Frank "Home Run" BakerSS - Luke ApplingLF - "Shoeless" Joe JacksonCF - James "Cool Papa" BellRF - Dave WinfieldBench - Roger Connor 1BBench - Mike "King" Kelly OF/CBench - Minnie Minoso OFBench - Mark Belanger SSBench - Larry Doyle 2BBench - George Kell 3BSP1 - Bob Gibson RSP2 - Carl Hubbell LSP3 - Luis Tiant RSP4 - Lefty Gomez LSP5 - David Cone RCloser - Bruce Sutter RSetup1 - Todd Worrell RSetup2 - John Hiller LMiddle1 - Johnny "Fireman" Murphy RMiddle2 - Darold Knowles LLong/Spot - Mario Soto RManager: Casey StengelGG opponents. Link to post Share on other sites
AmScray 355 Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.p...7717&page=2I can easily see Musial hanging around to talk to an average Joe fan.... he is like that. A high school buddy of mine (who was a college ballplayer and later an ump that made it all the was to AAA ball) was at Cooperstown with his folks back in the 80's. Musial and some other HOF'er were there for some event, and they come walking in to the restaurant that my buddy and his parents were eating at. The place stops as the legends get seated. My buddy's father about sh1ts down both pant legs with excitement. "That's Stan the Man! Stan the Man!" he could not beleive it and was stammering like a little kid. Growing up in the midwest, he knew all about Musial, as he was about 10 when Stan was in his prime. He tells his son (who knows who Musial is as well) to go get an autograph.So my buddy goes over, and asks Musial. Musial promptly pulls out a chair and tells him to sit down.... asks him where he's from.... does he play ball.... etc. My buddy tells Musial that its' his fathers Birthday, and they are enjoying the HOF. blah blah blah. The father is about in tears, watching with the biggest grin possible on a human beings' face as his own son sits down at Musial's table for about 5 minutes. Stan eventually gets around to signing his ball, and sends my buddy back to his family.Musial and his group finish their lunch before my buddy and his familiy do, and instead of leaving, Musial walks over to their table. The father is stammerring all over again, and can barely extend his hand to shake Stan The Man's hand, such is his excitement.Musial pulls out his HARMONICA, and proceeds to play Happy Birthday to You for the father. After the tune, Stan waves and walks out.....The family finishes their meal, one they will remember for the rest of their lives (I'm proof of that, having heard the story about a dozen times)... and they ask their waitress for their check. The waitress says...."Sir....... Mr. Musial took care of it. Have a nice day!" Link to post Share on other sites
7s7c 0 Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 I've never met Musial unfortunately, but everything I've ever heard/read about him points to him being sheer awesomeness and cool to talk to. Unlike Willie Mays who is now just a bitter old man for some reason. Link to post Share on other sites
jeff_536 3 Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Great blog post by Joe Posnanskihttp://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/07/19/musial/ Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Re Scram's story..Jesus H Christ! If he's really that nice of guy, god damn it, he needs to be a bigger star! Link to post Share on other sites
AmScray 355 Posted August 3, 2008 Author Share Posted August 3, 2008 So I'm just going to endlessly post facts about Musial in this post whenever I feel like it. The one thing that really holds Musial back is that he never did one "huge" thing. Just one example, he had the most career homeruns of any player to never have led the league in homeruns for a season (Palmerio eventually overtook this record). While he is the absolute poster child for consistent greatness, unfortunately, society overemphasizes momentary bursts of drama, so guys like him go unsung.One of the greatest feats in baseball is winning the Triple Crown. They're so scarce that only 13 guys have done it. In 1948, Musial fell just short of a Triple Crown by 1 HR. The catch? He hit that HR in a double-header that was rained out, so it wasn't counted. He also hit a blast in Shibe Park that hit the speakers above the fence in the outfield but a mentally retarded umpire called a "two base hit" (WTF??)So, OK, Musial got totally ****ed out of a Triple Crown, which would've probably been enough to get him the respect he deserves. But what makes this Triple Crown fucking suck ass so royally is that this was the season Musial was leading the league in everything. That's right. Everything. Batting average, runs, hits, doubles, triples, RBIs, on base percentage and slugging- he would've been the first and only Triple Crown winner to have what amounted to an "You Owned The Entire Universe" triple crown but by virtue of a rained out doubleheader and a drooling umpire, it never happened. Link to post Share on other sites
AmScray 355 Posted August 3, 2008 Author Share Posted August 3, 2008 ENPN's list of All Time Underrated Athletes:#1- Stan Musialhttp://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeunderrated.html Link to post Share on other sites
PMJackson21 0 Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 ENPN's list of All Time Underrated Athletes:#1- Stan Musialhttp://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeunderrated.html He is so much better then everyone else on that list in relevance to their sport. That makes his 'underated-ness' that much more obvious, and sad really. Link to post Share on other sites
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