Plo8 - From Cash To Tournies

[jmbreslin 0]

I'm needing a break from my NLHE turbo SnGs so I've started getting interested in PLO and PLO8 lately. Just finished reading Jeff Hwang's fantastic book and I've been playing around at the micro stakes cash games. I would also like to try some tournies/SnGs but I haven't come across any literature on PLO8 tourney strategy specifically. So, how do you adjust your PLO8 strategy to tourney/SnG play? Can you give me some general tips on making the adjustment? Thanks.

[antistuff 0]

understand that reasonable hands run very close in value preflop. then understand that this means that most people will play too tightly when the blinds are high in proportion to their stack. when a pot preflop will get it all in and there is any chance at all that you could take it down right there don't be embarrassed to end up with all the chips in the middle with some ridiculous hands. people will think you're crazy when you keep winning and splitting allin pots with 3456ds, but when you're 60/40 you don't need all that much in the pot when a single bet goes to the felt and there is even as little as a 25% chance that you might win it preflop.

[antistuff 0]

oh and that book, lets just say that i wish he would have left out the plo8 chapter, but since he didn't leave it out im happy it hasnt been publicized very much. thats how dead spot on i feel his advice is.

[jmbreslin 0]

Thanks for the advice, your point about the PF hand values makes a lot of sense. Getting it all in PF isn't nearly as scary when the values run so close and pots can be split, which is so different from NLHE.I absolutely loved Hwang's book. Read it once through, then went through it again with a highlighter, and now I'm reading everything I highlighted. It's really given me a much better understanding of both PLO and PLO8.

[antistuff 0]

if i was going to try to write something up to explain how i play plo8 it would look an awful lot like his chapter on it.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

In the small buy ins I find limping early with even weak 2 way hands can be verrrrry profitable for the reason being if you happen to flop the nut hig/lo with a redraw people will stack off when you are freerolling often(obvious ex. A3ss5h6c flop 2 4 8 ssh villains get it all in with trip 8s all day!)

[antistuff 0]

In the small buy ins I find limping early with even weak 2 way hands can be verrrrry profitable for the reason being if you happen to flop the nut hig/lo with a redraw people will stack off when you are freerolling often(obvious ex. A3ss5h6c flop 2 4 8 ssh villains get it all in with trip 8s all day!)

a356 is a weak hand?

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

a356 is a weak hand?

ok, so it's not that weak switch it to A479? just trying to make the point people will stack off when they hold current nutz on high side with no lo potential

[jmbreslin 0]

Okay, I need to start a discussion about PLO8 SnG strategy. I tried three of the $3.40 STT turbos on Stars recently and busted out in 7th all three times. The second one I stupidly overplayed a strong high-only hand when I was shortstacked and in another one I got my short stack in with a strong 2-way hand (AQT2 double-suited) and got knocked out when my low got counterfeited and the river produced the wrong flush.It's only a small sample but I was quite surprised at the play in these when comparing them to both NLHE SnGs and PLO8 cash games. Here are a couple of observations:1) Preflop raising is non-existent in the first few levels. In fact, it seems like PF raising doesn't start taking place until some people start to get desperate and look for spots to get all their chips in.2) Postflop play is very passive. I was shocked at how rarely people made pot bets and how often people make small (often minimum) bets into pots. It seems like people just don't want to commit too many chips in the early levels and wait until the blinds get higher before making larger bets.3) With respect to getting all your chips in, it seems like the best approach is actually to wait longer than you would in NLHE SnGs before pushing your chips in. I say this because of the fact that no hand rates to be better than 60/40 against any other hand in a PF matchup. This is an advantage when you're desperately shortstacked because you'll never be worse than 40%, but it doesn't really make sense to commit all your chips when you're never going to be better than 60% unless you have to (or unless you stand a good chance to steal the blinds, which doesn't seem that likely given the loose play in these). Since PLO8 is a postflop game, wouldn't it be a better strategy to limp a decent hand and hope for a favorable flop, then push, rather than getting it all in PF?Thoughts?

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

I agree with your observations. To answer your question in point #3 YES Another thing to consider is if you happen to be able to build a decent stack early you can push people around with mediocre hands preflop just because people h8 commiting preflop

[jmbreslin 0]

So if you build a stack early you start raising PF to put pressure on people? Do you find that your raises get a lot of respect?

[jmbreslin 0]

Finally cashed in my 5th attempt with a 2nd place finish. Man these things are frustrating. It's hard to feel like you have much control over the outcome when you can continually see flops with good starting hands which then have absolutely no value when the flop comes.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

So if you build a stack early you start raising PF to put pressure on people? Do you find that your raises get a lot of respect?

yes and yes putting people on hand ranges and raising flops when you are semisure they had to have missed works well too

Finally cashed in my 5th attempt with a 2nd place finish. Man these things are frustrating. It's hard to feel like you have much control over the outcome when you can continually see flops with good starting hands which then have absolutely no value when the flop comes.

yes, O8 sngs can be very frustrating indeed. that's why building a stack early in these things to me is so valuable. others are thinking the same thing and you can make some moves on people when the opportunity presents itself if you have some chips to work with. In these lo limit sngs/lo limit cash games you might also notice for the most part people play pretty str8 forward and this can be exploited something antistuff does quite well from some of the hands he's posted here

[jmbreslin 0]

Depends what you mean by playing straightforward. I find that the play is generally terrible, with people seeing flops with very mediocre hands (and often high-only hands) and overvaluing weak low draws, 2P, and so on. Easy money when you hit a good hand and find yourself in freeroll/scooping situations, but it makes it much tougher to put them on hands when you're not full of nuts.How much do you loosen your starting hand requirements for SnGs? Clearly waiting for strong hands isn't an ideal strategy in the turbos because the blinds climb quickly and even if you're lucky enough to get a strong hand there's still a decent chance it will go nowhere on the flop. Should I approach it in a similar way to NLHE SnGs, playing tight early and then loosening up a bit as the blinds climb?

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

what I meant by straight forward is after the flop you can put people on a pretty tight range IMHOI don't tighten up too much at all. I try and see flops as cheap as possible with two way hands only (sith position for the most part) and depending on the range of hands I put my opponents on and action in front of me I act accordingly. If you catch a piece both ways unless someone has shown a good deal of interest in the pot you can "usually" safely push the action and force people to make tough decisions

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

Also provide link to Card Player article involving one way high hands vs. random lo hands. Some of this has been stated b4, but the article is a good refresher at the leasthttp://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/12818 P.S. got link from a JK offsuit post in that thread and I'll just thank you now for pointing me in that direction Rocket I copied this from other thread on here related to O8 sng's

[jmbreslin 0]

The first link is dead but thanks for the 2nd one, it opens my eyes a bit to how I should be adjusting my strategy to the loose low stakes SnGs. Now that I think about it, it makes sense that high-only hands can be profitable in loose games because there is often a decent amount of dead money in the pot to make them slightly profitable even if you end up splitting. And then add to that the potential profits when you scoop a non-low pot.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

here's that link again should work this time good stuff from a thread Rocket sent me tohttp://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...cal+Bubble+Hand

[antistuff 0]

The first link is dead but thanks for the 2nd one, it opens my eyes a bit to how I should be adjusting my strategy to the loose low stakes SnGs. Now that I think about it, it makes sense that high-only hands can be profitable in loose games because there is often a decent amount of dead money in the pot to make them slightly profitable even if you end up splitting. And then add to that the potential profits when you scoop a non-low pot.

hi only hands are often dogs to random four card low hands.

[jmbreslin 0]

True, but that's more relevant when all the money goes in preflop. If you can see a flop cheaply high only hands can have good risk/reward potential if the game is loose.What I started doing last night (finished 3rd in both of the $3.40's I played) was looking for good spots to play high only hands cheaply in position when there were a lot of limpers already in the pot, but when it came time to push when I was very shortstacked I basically abandoned high-only hands and prioritized two-way or low-card hands.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

True, but that's more relevant when all the money goes in preflop. If you can see a flop cheaply high only hands can have good risk/reward potential if the game is loose.What I started doing last night (finished 3rd in both of the $3.40's I played) was looking for good spots to play high only hands cheaply in position when there were a lot of limpers already in the pot, but when it came time to push when I was very shortstacked I basically abandoned high-only hands and prioritized two-way or low-card hands.

+1 me likey!!!!

[jmbreslin 0]

Can't seem to get over the hump in these $3.40's - several 3rds, a 2nd, and a bunch of bustouts. It's amazing how much more quickly you become shortstacked in these compared to NLHE turbos because you tend to see a much higher number of flops. I know I have an edge over the average player in these but the results don't seem to show it yet.

[antistuff 0]

thinking about these, i think you could do the most damage in these in situations where people are scared. abuse the fact that your never that far behind preflop. so where are people scared in these? is it short stacked? do they get to like 3500 chips and then just hide? without every having played one of these i feel almost certain that somebody who would be all in with one raise preflop is playing too tightly. i think this is where you are going to have largest edge. this isn't a cash game where you can wait 300 hands for the nut low and a flush draw and get it in against top two. yea, when the blinds are small see lots of flops. i remember checky posting that he will see like 70% of flops when the blinds are small in plo8 tournaments. but when the blinds are like 100/200 and the average stack is 1200 i think you should be playing like a complete and utter maniac preflop. i am going to play maybe ten or so of these over the next week to see if my suspicions are correct. i will post what i find out in this thread and if anybody wants i will email them the entire hand histories of the tournaments.

[jmbreslin 0]

I'll be interested to see what you come up with.To be honest, it doesn't seem like people ever get scared in these. It seems like everyone basically plays according to the philosophy that virtually any hand can be competetive in PLO8, so people have very wide calling and pushing ranges when they get short. I got knocked out of one recently when I got it all in with a strong two-way hand and one of the bigger stacks called me with some junk like 8774 and hit a baby flush on a non-low board to scoop. Granted my sample size is very small, but I just can't seem to get a good handle on these.

[jmbreslin 0]

Okay, I'm officially giving up on these $3.40 turbos. The structure just offsets the skill advantage I have over weak opposition so there isn't much point in playing them. I'll just stick with cash games.