loose/semi-retarded 2/4 table

[Abbaddabba 0]

This notion of having a hand that's difficult to get rid of being a negative is absurd. The reason it's difficult to get rid of is because it's a worthwhile call. The reason i posted this is because this IS a worst case scenario where i was asking if a call was STILL warranted. I could easily have gotten away from the hand if it had gotten capped on the turn after the board paired.6/7/8 clearly isn't an "optimal" flop for me, given what i now know about the other players hands by token of the fact that they're capping it behind me. The board paring twice is the worst possible case scenario for me on the turn and river. Despite that, i was still only marginally beat and given what i knew about the table, i could justify calling. Reverse implied odds is a ****ing catch phrase that captures the fact that a made straight can be beaten, but you won't be certain enough that you're beat to fold. Wow. WHat a ****ing brilliant theory. The same can be said about anything that isn't drawing to the nuts. Even if you hit a set, you're not guaranteed to take the hand, but it doesn't mean that it's entire value is negated on account of the fact that a flush draw is out there. All it means is that there is somewhat less value to these hands that represent the situations where other hands are drawing to beat you. The fact that "reverse implied odds" exist doesn't negate the entire value of a hand and certainly doesnt make 4/5 suited unplayable in that situation.There is ALWAYS potential for a solid made hand(in this case a straight) to 'go bad'; probably more easily than a set, but the value of the hand is by no means invalidated. An advantage is that you pay significantly less than at a no limit table for your draws. A drawback is that you cant bet as much in order to defend it once you've made the hand (or looking at it from another perspective, extract as much once you do hit).The opinion of one JFARREL that these hands are unplayable for .75BB at a full table with one or two more players to act isn't exactly convincing. Your flat world analogy is a bit off. A better one would be that while everyone believes the world is round, you're ranting on a street corner that the world doesn't exist.You can lay out another dozen hypothetical hands where i could get ****ed, and for every one i could make up a hypothetical where i'd win a lot. If you're going to go against the general consensus, you're going to have to provide evidence a bit more compelling than hypothetical losing hands. Can you find any books that would recommend against playing similar hands in this situation? I can certainly find several that suggests that it's callable.

[Guest]

This notion of having a hand that's difficult to get rid of being a negative is absurd. The reason it's difficult to get rid of is because it's a worthwhile call. The reason i posted this is because this IS a worst case scenario where i was asking if a call was STILL warranted. I could easily have gotten away from the hand if it had gotten capped on the turn after the board paired.6/7/8 clearly isn't an "optimal" flop for me, given what i now know about the other players hands by token of the fact that they're capping it behind me. The board paring twice is the worst possible case scenario for me on the turn and river. Despite that, i was still only marginally beat and given what i knew about the table, i could justify calling. Reverse implied odds is a censored catch phrase that captures the fact that a made straight can be beaten, but you won't be certain enough that you're beat to fold. Wow. WHat a censored brilliant theory. The same can be said about anything that isn't drawing to the nuts. Even if you hit a set, you're not guaranteed to take the hand, but it doesn't mean that it's entire value is negated on account of the fact that a flush draw is out there. All it means is that there is somewhat less value to these hands that represent the situations where other hands are drawing to beat you. The fact that "reverse implied odds" exist doesn't negate the entire value of a hand and certainly doesnt make 4/5 suited unplayable in that situation.There is ALWAYS potential for a solid made hand(in this case a straight) to 'go bad'; probably more easily than a set, but the value of the hand is by no means invalidated. An advantage is that you pay significantly less than at a no limit table for your draws. A drawback is that you cant bet as much in order to defend it once you've made the hand (or looking at it from another perspective, extract as much once you do hit).The opinion of one JFARREL that these hands are unplayable for .75BB at a full table with one or two more players to act isn't exactly convincing. Your flat world analogy is a bit off. A better one would be that while everyone believes the world is round, you're ranting on a street corner that the world doesn't exist.You can lay out another dozen hypothetical hands where i could get censored, and for every one i could make up a hypothetical where i'd win a lot. If you're going to go against the general consensus, you're going to have to provide evidence a bit more compelling than hypothetical losing hands. Can you find any books that would recommend against playing similar hands in this situation? I can certainly find several that suggests that it's callable.

Nice post.

[JFarrell20 1]

The reason it's difficult to get rid of is because it's a worthwhile call.  What?  Is this your attempt at being profound?  It being a worthwhile call has NOTHING to do with it being difficult to get rid of.6/7/8 clearly isn't an "optimal" flop for me, given what i now know about the other players hands by token of the fact that they're capping it behind me.  Please!  Please!  Tell me what an "optimal" flop is then!  You're holding 45!  What are you trying to land here in a multi-way pot!  555!?  444!?  Get real man.  Calling .75 BB here is a leak.  Pure and simple.  The odds of your crappy hand holding up are astronomically small.  Stop trying to sugar-coat it.  You have an identifyable leak and you're afraid to admit it.The board paring twice is the worst possible case scenario for me on the turn and river.  No shyt.  More proof of my point.Despite that, i was still only marginally beat and given what i knew about the table, i could justify calling.  You identify that you're beat here but you "justify" calling... lol.  If someone's already made a boat on the turn you are drawing dead.  Have fun with that.  You're so beat it's not even funny.  You were beat before the flop.  You lost the hand when you called .75BB instead of folding for .25BB.Reverse implied odds is a censored catch phrase that captures the fact that a made straight can be beaten, but you won't be certain enough that you're beat to fold.  Wow.  WHat a censored brilliant theory.  The same can be said about anything that isn't drawing to the nuts.  Not in a pot with less than 18 people or however many were in this.  And not on a typical board which isn't coordinated, and doesn't pair.Even if you hit a set, you're not guaranteed to take the hand, but it doesn't mean that it's entire value is negated on account of the fact that a flush draw is out there.  All it means is that there is somewhat less value to these hands that represent the situations where other hands are drawing to beat you.  The fact that "reverse implied odds" exist doesn't negate the entire value of a hand and certainly doesnt make 4/5 suited unplayable in that situation.Whatever.  Your reasoning is way off.There is ALWAYS potential for a solid made hand(in this case a straight) to 'go bad'; probably more easily than a set, but the value of the hand is by no means invalidated.  An advantage is that you pay significantly less than at a no limit table for your draws.  A drawback is that you cant bet as much in order to defend it once you've made the hand (or looking at it from another perspective, extract as much once you do hit).No shyt.  This is part of my point.  There are two ways to win here.  Flop a draw, stay in, and make it.  OR flop your made hand, and hope to hold up against 18 opponents.  Neither one is better than the other but neither one is particularly good either.  What you've said here is why you can justify playing 45s at a no limit table, and not in this spot, at limit.  This is why I can get away with completing with K6off against 5 limpers in a NL TOURNAMENT!  Calling a raise with this hand in a limit game is a leak.  It's 10 times easier to get away with playing K6off at NL than 45 at limit.The opinion of one JFARREL that these hands are unplayable for .75BB at a full table with one or two more players to act isn't exactly convincing.  Your flat world analogy is a bit off.  A better one would be that while everyone believes the world is round, you're ranting on a street corner that the world doesn't exist.What about my analogy of this:  Calling down with an obviously beaten hand when you never should have called in the first place is to mating with a cow as punching a child is to helping an old lady cross the street.  You see, the first item is "worse" than the second item in this analogy.  Hope this helps.You can lay out another dozen hypothetical hands where i could get censored, and for every one i could make up a hypothetical where i'd win a lot.  If you're going to go against the general consensus, you're going to have to provide evidence a bit more compelling than hypothetical losing hands.  Can you find any books that would recommend against playing similar hands in this situation?  I can certainly find several that suggests that it's callable.Please just answer me this:  What kind of flop do you want to see here?  You've not answered this once.  Neither has anyone else.  You got an almost ideal flop for your holding, yet it was still "dangerous".  Don't you get it?  45s just isn't worth calling a raise with.  Completing is fine, but don't call .75BB pre-flop against everyone and their grandma.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Flopping a straight is fine. Flopping a straight when someone else flops a higher straight, not so much. Flopping the lowest possible straight that i can make and having the board pair twice is the absolute worst that i could expect from a made hand. Flopping the low straight isn't a situation exclusive to 4/5s however. That applies to all but the highest suited connectors. The primary difference between 8/9s and 4/5s is that there is a marginal difference in the flush value. The high card value is also only marginally superior. 8/9s is absolutely a calll in a full game with amateurs for .75BB and 4/5s is not so vastly inferior to warrant a fold.

What? Is this your attempt at being profound? It being a worthwhile call has NOTHING to do with it being difficult to get rid of.

For a retard, i suppose. You make calls on the basis that, from what you know, it's a good (+ev) decision. If it's a DIFFICULT decision, it implies that it's a borderline case where you aren't sure if it's a +ev play. If it's a difficult call, but still callable - for a rational person, this means that it's believed to be +ev. The reason i called is because i didnt _know_ i was beat. The bettor was almost certainly overplaying high pockets and there was one caller - not a raiser, with the player behind me mucking before i acted. 1BB for a pot of roughly 20BB's with a bettor who im fairly certain that i have beat is an easy call.The more I read, the more I'm convinced that there's something wrong with you. You're definitely up there with splashmaster. It's beyond me as to why you're relating this to some NL hand that I have never commented on.

[KDawgCometh 2]

bump, there is some classic JFarrell shit in here

[RISEorFall 0]

usually these JFarrell bumps annoy me, but I haven't seen this one before and now my side hurts....

[KDawgCometh 2]

bump, there is some classic JFarrell shit in here

for those that haven't seen this one

[DCWildcat 0]

bump, there is some classic JFarrell shit in here

for those that haven't seen this one

wow, this an oldie. nh kdawg.

[mrdannyg 274]

If I look outside and see a fun homerun derby going on, yet a drunk crazy guy speeding up and down the street waving a gun out the window...I'm not going to go outside. Not with a 45s. I'll forego the possibility of partaking in a fun homerun derby, until another day.

i thought this was a pretty funny analogy actually. i might use it sometime.

[KDawgCometh 2]

bump, there is some classic JFarrell shit in here

for those that haven't seen this one

[Jeepster80125 0]

bump, there is some classic JFarrell shit in here

for those that haven't seen this one

Happy Holidays!!

[KDawgCometh 2]

bump, there is some classic JFarrell **** in here