serge 904 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 The whole issue with the cap is going to be a problem sooner than later...only 2 years after the CBA Gms are still signing players to irresponsible contracts...are Tomas Vanek and Daniel Briere great players??YesShould they be paid the same or higher than Crosby and Thornton...HELL NO... Link to post Share on other sites
gruven 530 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Its a biased article that is totally slanted in one way...I can write the same article showing how Gainey is a terrible GM..Nowhere in the article is the name Sergei Samsonov....But he loves to point out on more than one occasion on Ferguson's mistakes.."Gainey is lauded for making fewer mistakes on the free agents he did sign. When forward Sergei Samsonov did not pan out, Gainey was able to trade him to the Chicago Blackhawks because he only had one year left on his contract. He did give the relatively unheralded defenceman Roman Hamrlik a four-year contract for $5.5-million (U.S.) a year but that is working well so far as a replacement for Sheldon Souray, who went to the Edmonton Oilers as a free agent this past summer" Link to post Share on other sites
Fenxis 99 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 The whole issue with the cap is going to be a problem sooner than later...only 2 years after the CBA Gms are still signing players to irresponsible contracts...are Tomas Vanek and Daniel Briere great players??YesShould they be paid the same or higher than Crosby and Thornton...HELL NO...Obviously the whole max of 20%? of your cap on one player is still way too high -- hopefully the player union will see fit to drop it a bit the next CBA so all of the middle tier players don't get screwed over / go back to europe. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 fair enough..but he spins the signing into a positive because he was able to trade him away to the BlackHawks..the whole article is tilted towards the Canadiens... Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted November 13, 2007 Author Share Posted November 13, 2007 Obviously the whole max of 20%? of your cap on one player is still way too high -- hopefully the player union will see fit to drop it a bit the next CBA so all of the middle tier players don't get screwed over / go back to europe.I highly doubt the NHLPA will push to get it dropped. It would be viewed as lowering the potential earnings of elite players rather than increasing the potential earnings of mediocre players. Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted November 13, 2007 Author Share Posted November 13, 2007 fair enough..but he spins the signing into a positive because he was able to trade him away to the BlackHawks..the whole article is tilted towards the Canadiens...Gainey received a '0' for the Samsonov signing when they evaluate the moves made. And it is a positive that Gainey was able to trade Samsonov. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Obviously the whole max of 20%? of your cap on one player is still way too high -- hopefully the player union will see fit to drop it a bit the next CBA so all of the middle tier players don't get screwed over / go back to europe.Yes and then the whole problem of not being able to keep your players...Lets take the example of the Pittsburgh Penguins...The way the CBA is they basically have to pay Crosby and Malkin 8 to 9 million dollars...Then guys like Staal,Armstrong,Fleury are going to demand in the $5 million range so there is roughly $30 million on 5 players...It will be very hard to keep a team together...The Salary Cap hurts hockey in the long run Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted November 13, 2007 Author Share Posted November 13, 2007 Yes and then the whole problem of not being able to keep your players...Lets take the example of the Pittsburgh Penguins...The way the CBA is they basically have to pay Crosby and Malkin 8 to 9 million dollars...Then guys like Staal,Armstrong,Fleury are going to demand in the $5 million range so there is roughly $30 million on 5 players...It will be very hard to keep a team together...The Salary Cap hurts hockey in the long run$5 million for each of Colby Armstrong and M.A. Fleury?Is Ferguson going to sign them? Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Have you heard of Dustin Penner and his contract...? Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted November 13, 2007 Author Share Posted November 13, 2007 Have you heard of Dustin Penner and his contract...?Yes, I have. Do you realize that Kevin Lowe had to overpay for Penner or Burke would have simply matched? Do you realize that the Ducks chose to let Penner go to Edmonton and took the draft picks? There is no way the Pens will be paying Colby Armstrong and M.A. Fleury $5 million each. If John Ferguson Jr. gives either of them an offer sheet for that amount of money then I'm sure Pittsburgh will gladly take the picks. Link to post Share on other sites
Fenxis 99 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 There's no way offer sheets should be used as comparables in negotiations Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Eklund talks about this today..how about like other sports, each team designates one player as their FRANCHISE PLAYER...This player's salary wouldnt count against the cap, or a portion of it , say $7 or $8 million would..That way a guy like Crosby can make what he deserves.... Link to post Share on other sites
Fenxis 99 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Would kind of defeat the purpose of the lockout... to let small market teams compete. Otherwise ... a team like the Rangers could offer Crosby $20 mill and flag him as a franchise tag. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 but the way it is now , there is really no free market...If you are a free agent basically every team has a max to what you can make...And as a Leafs fan I am biased...I dont like the system where our money has no leverage in the free agent market, and we are stuck with bad contracts...I know the argument has been made at length...But i dont like it.. Link to post Share on other sites
Fenxis 99 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 but the way it is now , there is really no free market...If you are a free agent basically every team has a max to what you can make...And as a Leafs fan I am biased...I dont like the system where our money has no leverage in the free agent market, and we are stuck with bad contracts...I know the argument has been made at length...But i dont like it..Don't worry.. I'm sure the Leafs would have found a way to screw up the franchise tag as well. Link to post Share on other sites
Whiter Sr 0 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 The whole issue with the cap is going to be a problem sooner than later...only 2 years after the CBA Gms are still signing players to irresponsible contracts...are Tomas Vanek and Daniel Briere great players??YesShould they be paid the same or higher than Crosby and Thornton...HELL NO...I would blame Lowe for the Vanek contract. After losing Briere and Drury they had to match to stay competitive and they had the cap room. If it wasn't for Lowe they would have went to arbitration and he would've been paid a lot lower number. Link to post Share on other sites
Whiter Sr 0 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Except that FAs don't want to go to Montreal...This may be totally wrong but did Montreal offer Briere the same $$ as Philly but he went with Philly instead? Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I would blame Lowe for the Vanek contract. After losing Briere and Drury they had to match to stay competitive and they had the cap room. If it wasn't for Lowe they would have went to arbitration and he would've been paid a lot lower number.I know a lot of people blame Lowe, but he had to do what he did for Penner and Vanek...He lost out on Smyth and couldnt get the other big name free agents to come...But I know a lot of gms blame Lowe , however what he did was in the rules set out in the CBA. Link to post Share on other sites
Whiter Sr 0 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I know a lot of people blame Lowe, but he had to do what he did for Penner and Vanek...He lost out on Smyth and couldnt get the other big name free agents to come...But I know a lot of gms blame Lowe , however what he did was in the rules set out in the CBA.I realize it was within the rules. I am just saying you can't blame Regier for overpaying for Vanek. He is not worth the $$ but he had the room to do it and he really couldn't afford not to. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I would blame Lowe for the Vanek contract. After losing Briere and Drury they had to match to stay competitive and they had the cap room. If it wasn't for Lowe they would have went to arbitration and he would've been paid a lot lower number.You know who I blame for McCabe's contract? Not Ferguson, but instead Peter Chiareli and Michael Barnett. (Chara+Jovanovski)You know who I blame for Gomez? Paul Holmgren. (Briere)If your gonna blame Lowe for a contract Buffalo was willing to sign, then I guess you gotta do the same with all past contracts.Its easy to blame Kevin Lowe, but if it was such a bad contract and overpayment, than Buffalo should not have matched. If its worth it for Buffalo to pay that much just to keep a player, imagine how much better it would have been for Edmonton to ACQUIRE a player so talented at that pay scale.I am sick and tired of Lowe getting bashed for Vanek+Penner. I love active GM's who do WHATEVER they can to improve their team. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I think that if no one offers contracts to RFA , whats the point of being a RFA...I really hope there are tons of offers next year as it makes things a lot more exciting... Link to post Share on other sites
Whiter Sr 0 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 You know who I blame for McCabe's contract? Not Ferguson, but instead Peter Chiareli and Michael Barnett. (Chara+Jovanovski)You know who I blame for Gomez? Paul Holmgren. (Briere)If your gonna blame Lowe for a contract Buffalo was willing to sign, then I guess you gotta do the same with all past contracts.Its easy to blame Kevin Lowe, but if it was such a bad contract and overpayment, than Buffalo should not have matched. If its worth it for Buffalo to pay that much just to keep a player, imagine how much better it would have been for Edmonton to ACQUIRE a player so talented at that pay scale.I am sick and tired of Lowe getting bashed for Vanek+Penner. I love active GM's who do WHATEVER they can to improve their team.Let me explain myself. I am not a Lowe hater. He did what he had to do. My point is, it was worth it for Regier to overpay say $2 Mil per year rather than lose 3 of their top 4 offensive weapons in 1 off season. If Lowe hadn't done the sheet the Sabres would have gotten Vanek for a lot cheaper.I am a Buffalo Fan and by no means do I hold a grudge towards Lowe. Like you said what he did was legal. But it did lead to Vanek being overpaid. Link to post Share on other sites
Whiter Sr 0 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I think that if no one offers contracts to RFA , whats the point of being a RFA...I really hope there are tons of offers next year as it makes things a lot more exciting...I agree.I'd like to see some of the offers being realeased and drafts picks get exchanged. Very rarely I would think it is worth it to sign a player for 5 1st round picks. There are not that many players that good in the League. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 most players I dont think fall in the 5 1st round picks category..not sure the exact break down , but to get a player like Wellwood or Steen...It wouldnt cost that much... Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Let me explain myself. I am not a Lowe hater. He did what he had to do. My point is, it was worth it for Regier to overpay say $2 Mil per year rather than lose 3 of their top 4 offensive weapons in 1 off season. If Lowe hadn't done the sheet the Sabres would have gotten Vanek for a lot cheaper.I am a Buffalo Fan and by no means do I hold a grudge towards Lowe. Like you said what he did was legal. But it did lead to Vanek being overpaid.Ok, fair enough. But I'm saying this is an easy one to "lay blame" on Lowe because there was an actual offer sheet involved. Many times, teams have to pay players a number based on a comparable player getting a similar contract from a different team. So when the Leafs overpay McCabe, its hard to figure out if thats a bad signing, or a necessary one just like Vanek. If McCabe was a bad signing because he was overpaid, then Vanek is also a bad signing if he is overpaid in that philosophy.The truth is, any RFA or UFA has to be overpaid. There should be no such thing as getting a FA at a decent value. If I try to trade for a Vanek, I have to give up a ridiculous amount of assets.If I can get Vanek, not give up any assets, but overpay him by 2million? I would do it in a second fora young player I thought would help my franchise for years.Truth is, the RFA's have not been signed because of an old boys network in the NHL. I think the Gm's were foolish to not use such an incredibly valuable tool. Link to post Share on other sites
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