limit poker - lights went on!

[Suited_Up 2]

I've always been somewhat ok at playing limit, but I take the share of bad beats like everyone else. It pretty much makes me nuts and I've tried recently to stay away all together, especially on Party.Well I just started to play a little bit again recently after reading so many posts on here about what to do in this spot and that spot and whatever. I think that it finally clicked for me.I've read SSHE and know how to read a board pretty well... but have always given too much credit I think... to the other players at the low limits. I think the key is not to do that. Sure, if it's obvious they have you killed... fold. But one bet on the flop doesn't always mean they have top pair, and a re-raise doesn't even mean TPTK half the time. I have seen people re-raise with absolutely nothing, or gutshot draws, you name it.I have also thought I've been playing aggressive... but I think I may have been somewhere in the middle. I play more aggressive post flop, but would limp with KJ or KQ (any position). Now I find if I raise with those hands, and just get called, I can usually figure I'm ahead of most people unless they have a weak ace or small pair maybe. Also figured out if I'm in late position and facing 2 bets cold, I might as well fold it. (Although depends a little on the game).The whole re-raising thing wasn't something I used to use that often, cause I always thought one raise meant I was dead anyway... And sometimes it does, but it seems at the low limits, that when you're up against a good hand, be wary of the calls, not the raises.Now I haven't played a whole lot since I found this clarity, but I may give it another shot now and so far it's going ok. I'd like to hear everyone's input on all this and whether it seems like I'm on the right track.It's not that I always lost at limit, I'm pretty sure I'm up for my career, but I doubt I've been able to make the most out of it, and that's basically where I'm going with this. What is everyone's thoughts?

[Suited_Up 2]

Here's a couple good examples of some plays I think are more aggressive than I had played recently, tell me what you think.$0.5/$1 Hold'em - Friday, January 28, 12:40:08 EDT 2005Table Table 25383 (Real Money)Seat 3 is the buttonTotal number of players : 10 Seat 2: bigjfaye ( $2.5 )Seat 4: JuanWong ( $50 )Seat 5: daniel_hult ( $17 )Seat 6: RitaRugby ( $31 )Seat 9: triley25 ( $183.75 )Seat 10: PISDETZ ( $49 )Seat 7: Suited__Up ( $26.25 )Seat 8: Rexgetz ( $27.25 )Seat 3: jackmeister ( $21.5 )Seat 1: gobluelatb ( $11.5 )JuanWong posts small blind [$0.25].daniel_hult posts big blind [$0.5].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to Suited__Up [ Kc Jd ]RitaRugby folds.Suited__Up raises [$1].Rexgetz folds.triley25 folds.PISDETZ folds.gobluelatb calls [$1].bigjfaye folds.jackmeister calls [$1].JuanWong folds.daniel_hult folds.** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, 3d, Kd ]Suited__Up bets [$0.5].gobluelatb folds.jackmeister folds.Suited__Up does not show cards.Suited__Up wins $4.25Normally I don't raise with this hand, but I did it in EP this time... Not always the best move, but low limits it should give me an idea how my hand is. 3 suited board normally scares me, but I also have the Jd, So I bet out and take it right there.***** Hand History for Game 1504599615 *****$0.5/$1 Hold'em - Friday, January 28, 12:53:22 EDT 2005Table Table 25383 (Real Money)Seat 9 is the buttonTotal number of players : 9 Seat 4: JuanWong ( $54.75 )Seat 5: daniel_hult ( $5.75 )Seat 6: RitaRugby ( $33.75 )Seat 9: triley25 ( $176.5 )Seat 10: PISDETZ ( $55.75 )Seat 7: Suited__Up ( $28.5 )Seat 3: jackmeister ( $29.25 )Seat 1: gobluelatb ( $14 )Seat 8: mikewiz32 ( $31 )PISDETZ posts small blind [$0.25].gobluelatb posts big blind [$0.5].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to Suited__Up [ Ad Tc ]jackmeister folds.JuanWong folds.daniel_hult folds.RitaRugby folds.Suited__Up raises [$1].mikewiz32 calls [$1].triley25 folds.PISDETZ folds.gobluelatb calls [$0.5].** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 4d, Qs ]gobluelatb checks.Suited__Up bets [$0.5].mikewiz32 calls [$0.5].gobluelatb folds.** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]Suited__Up bets [$1].mikewiz32 raises [$2].Suited__Up raises [$2].mikewiz32 calls [$1].** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]Suited__Up bets [$1].mikewiz32 folds.Suited__Up does not show cards.Suited__Up wins $10.75Again... I feel A10 is a vulnerable hand, but I'm in mid-late position and had a lot of folds in front of me, so I thought I could raise this one. Catch the nut straight draw and bet out. Get called and hit my straight on the turn. Get raised on the turn, now we're talkin, so I could call and try to get a CR on the river but I thought maybe he hit 2 pair and would pay me off anyway. He folded on the river though, but I got the extra turn bet.

[Glitch29 0]

One thing I feel compelled to mention is that you can't really be "ahead" preflop with KQ. If you're playing any of the juicy games with 5 or 6 people to the flop, the chances of king high being good preflop are very near zero, as someone is likely to have an ace or a pair. The chances of this still being true at the river are virtually zero. There are some times and places where you can bet Ace high on the flop or turn, and sometimes you can even call a bet with it on the river, but if you're doing this too often it's going to become a substancial leak in your game.

[justblaze 0]

the key to limit is figuring out what bets mean for each player. some guys like to raise with flush draws, some like to check-call. some guys will lead out with nothing on a scary board, some will only bet the nuts. some will 3 bet with TPTK, some will 3 bet with trash. you cant analyze the bets just by the numbers, you need to read way more into the players. In NL its much more obvious what a bet means, limit is a game of subtleties.

[LIPOKERPACK 0]

Kurt, Kurt, KurtI think your on the right track, except for a few major points. 1 KJ, K10 Q10 just isnt that strong anywhere except for late positions in weak situations.2. you need to develop your reading skills alot more. Try this. Buy into a limit game low enough that it wont do any serious damage to your b-roll, but high enoufg so that every hand isnt a 9 handed pot.Raise every single hand pre-flop and work on your post flop reading skills. -This will take lots of time, but eventually you will learn how to play with players psychology and other tendencies. ***This is more effective in b&m cardrooms, but still works online***

[Suited_Up 2]

Well... First off, I know that KJ isn't that strong. But I also wasn't in a very aggressive room. I don't think anyone raised besides me, maybe once or twice. I think it's the daytime play, versus the crazy nighttime people.I don't really have much defense, but in a different room I probably won't raise KJ from early position, but it worked in this one.As for reading skills... I have worked on those for awhile, and they aren't all that bad really. The problem I seem to have is that I am assuming they have hands way better than they actually do at these limits. If say Q high comes on the board and someone bets, I'm thinking he has a queen. Yet half the time they have bottom pair and are just retarded. Then other times I'm in a SnG or watching my girlfriend play one, and I'll just walk up and say, oh he's got AJ, and then he turns it over. So i'm somewhere between reading them well or I'm way off cause they are crazy.

[Suited_Up 2]

Oh, to add to what you said LIPOKERPACK.... K10 and Q1o... I've managed to stop playing those most of the time now. I don't even bother unless I'm in the blind or maybe last 2 positions with limps and folds ahead of me.

[LIPOKERPACK 0]

try what i said, it will take a while to develop very good skills, and maybe cost a little, but when you finally get good, you reading skills will be razor sharp. Works better in live play.

[justblaze 0]

Works better in live play.

why, out of curiosity, do you say that? ( i know why you say that but i want to hear it from you before i disagree).

[Suited_Up 2]

Test your reading skills on this hand... I don't know if I could have done anything different... but what do you think he has?***** Hand History for Game 1504970438 *****$0.5/$1 Hold'em - Friday, January 28, 14:48:55 EDT 2005Table Cool Cate (Real Money)Seat 6 is the buttonTotal number of players : 9 Seat 2: vantheman10 ( $26.75 )Seat 4: tenzo11 ( $29.25 )Seat 5: ferzie ( $33 )Seat 9: Ozkudyphora ( $26.5 )Seat 10: davejonis ( $66.25 )Seat 7: Suited__Up ( $28.25 )Seat 6: CryingRiver8 ( $31.5 )Seat 8: jmac1545 ( $18.5 )Seat 3: pOkerSmOt ( $6 )Suited__Up posts small blind [$0.25].jmac1545 posts big blind [$0.5].pOkerSmOt posts big blind [$0.5].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to Suited__Up [ Ks Kd ]Ozkudyphora calls [$0.5].davejonis folds.vantheman10 folds.pOkerSmOt checks.tenzo11 calls [$0.5].ferzie calls [$0.5].CryingRiver8 calls [$0.5].Suited__Up raises [$0.75].jmac1545 calls [$0.5].Ozkudyphora calls [$0.5].pOkerSmOt calls [$0.5].tenzo11 calls [$0.5].ferzie calls [$0.5].CryingRiver8 calls [$0.5].** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 9c, Qs ]Suited__Up bets [$0.5].jmac1545 folds.Ozkudyphora folds.pOkerSmOt calls [$0.5].tenzo11 raises [$1].ferzie calls [$1].CryingRiver8 folds.Suited__Up raises [$1].pOkerSmOt folds.tenzo11 calls [$0.5].ferzie calls [$0.5].** Dealing Turn ** [ Jh ]Suited__Up bets [$1].tenzo11 raises [$2].ferzie folds.Suited__Up raises [$2].tenzo11 calls [$1].** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]Suited__Up bets [$1].tenzo11 raises [$2].Suited__Up calls [$1].tenzo11 shows [] Suited__Up doesn't show [ Ks, Kd ] a pair of kings.tenzo11 wins $21 from the main pot with ???

[Suited_Up 2]

Ok, now this is what I'm talking about and why you can't read these retards!***** Hand History for Game 1505004052 *****$0.5/$1 Hold'em - Friday, January 28, 14:58:06 EDT 2005Table Cool Cate (Real Money)Seat 6 is the buttonTotal number of players : 10 Seat 2: vantheman10 ( $26.75 )Seat 4: tenzo11 ( $48 )Seat 5: ferzie ( $23.75 )Seat 9: Ozkudyphora ( $27 )Seat 10: davejonis ( $67.75 )Seat 7: Suited__Up ( $19.75 )Seat 6: CryingRiver8 ( $24 )Seat 8: jmac1545 ( $14.5 )Seat 3: pOkerSmOt ( $9 )Seat 1: catalasa ( $20.75 )Suited__Up posts small blind [$0.25].jmac1545 posts big blind [$0.5].vantheman10 posts big blind + dead [$0.75].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to Suited__Up [ Ac Qs ]Ozkudyphora folds.davejonis folds.catalasa folds.vantheman10 checks.tenzo11 calls [$0.5].ferzie folds.CryingRiver8 raises [$1].Suited__Up calls [$0.75].jmac1545 calls [$0.5].vantheman10 calls [$0.5].tenzo11 calls [$0.5].** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, Qh, Tc ]Suited__Up bets [$0.5].jmac1545 folds.vantheman10 folds.tenzo11 folds.CryingRiver8 raises [$1].Suited__Up raises [$1].CryingRiver8 calls [$0.5].** Dealing Turn ** [ Kc ]Suited__Up bets [$1].CryingRiver8 raises [$2].Suited__Up calls [$1].** Dealing River ** [ 8h ]Suited__Up checks.CryingRiver8 bets [$1].Suited__Up calls [$1].CryingRiver8 shows [ 9h, Ah ] a flush, ace high.Suited__Up doesn't show [ Ac, Qs ] two pairs, queens and tens.CryingRiver8 wins $13.5 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.Ozkudyphora has left the table.

[Spidurman 0]

if you want to play limit, try something other than holdem. The other games are more readable hands (and usually quite beatable).

[Suited_Up 2]

if you want to play limit, try something other than holdem.  The other games are more readable hands (and usually quite beatable).

I don't know the games that well though... I can play omaha and whatnot, but I don't know starting hands as well and all that kind of stuff.I did win an O/8 Play money SnG on my first try though. lol.

[justblaze 0]

first hand i have him on AQ or two pair, but more likely AQ given the river action. second hand i would have had him on a strong queen or a heart draw on the flop, since he wont stop betting a 10. turn action suggests QK but i can see why he raised - he figured he was golden with his monster heart draw and mistook his gutshot for an up and down because he had the 9 as well.

[Spidurman 0]

if you want to play limit, try something other than holdem.  The other games are more readable hands (and usually quite beatable).

I don't know the games that well though... I can play omaha and whatnot, but I don't know starting hands as well and all that kind of stuff.I did win an O/8 Play money SnG on my first try though. lol.

lol - good time to learn then :)In all seriousness, it will make you a better poker player if you master multiple games. The skills learned do translate back to your main game of holdem, and its good. Plus I just love the variety - it keeps poker interesting. I can play a month straight of a game, drop it, and then come back.

[Suited_Up 2]

Well.... The first hand.... He had 8 10.Hit a straight on the turn.You see what the 2nd guy had, he's just a numbnuts and i'm kind of having a war with him still as we speak, lol. Too bad I can't get anything to play.