marked cards at river rock casino?

[aucu 3]

Has anyone seen this? A couple posters here have mentioned they play at the River Rock and I want to know they think. I'm going to be in Vancouver in a couple of weeks and was thinking of playing there but this makes me think twice.From RGP: Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Subject: marked deck in casino poker room, Richmond BC Canada Sent: Jan 4 2005 12:42 AM Author: mark budworth (mbudworth@shaw.ca) Post Options: Hide View: Normal | Header Options: Print | Email BEWARE OF CHEATING IN CANADA'S LARGEST POKER ROOM! Below is a email I sent to the BC Gaming Policy and Enforcement Branch Dear Sir I was playing poker at the Richmond casino at approximately 7pm on Jan 3, 2005. I was playing at table P16, a $2/4 limit holdum game. I noticed the cards were in poor condition and realized that I was able to identify a card I had held previously just by looking at the back of the card. I know it as Qd just by looking at the back of the card due to wear markings. I mentioned this to the dealer and requested a change of cards. I examined the cards and very quickly noticed a pattern of "wear" marking on high cards/ face cards. I was able to consistently look at the back of a card and tell if it was a high card based on the "wear" on the card. Many years ago I had an interest in card tricks and have " marked " decks myself, therefore this was not difficult for me to see. I noted this to the floor manager and asked to discuss the issue with a manager. Casino staff consistently said that the marking were the result of the automatic shuffling machine but this was not consistent with my examination of the cards. High cards had a consistent trend of wear that was not present on most low cards. I suspect a player had been using a rough surface and had rubbed the cards to make these markings. This is a very common form of cheating. I spoke to the Casino Manager. His position was the cards were not marked, that the wear on them was only the result of the shuffling machines. He made this decision without having given the cards much examination. I demonstrated to him and some of his staff that I could identify high cards by looking only at the back of the cards. During my ad hoc demonstration I was correct 12 times out of 15 times, identifying high cards only looking at the wear patterns on the back of the cards. The casino manager's response was that he didn't think that in a holdum poker game marked cards would give anyone an advantage. I cant believed a casino manger would say that to me ................ either he thinks I am a fool or he should not be managing a poker room! When I was talking to the casino manger his demeanor was quite gruff and somewhat intimidating. His opening line to conversation was " so you want to talk to me" and he had two young big tough looking security staff standing looking at me in an intimidating manner. I am a soft overweight "married with kids" 44 year old guy........................ I had the strong sense that they were trying to intimidate me into forgetting about the incident. Frankly this is what angered me the most. I thought they would be concerned about a marked deck being on their poker table but they tried to make me feel like I'd offended "Tony Soprano" and should forget about it.................... the casino manager kept looking at me in an angry manner saying " so what do you want" I really don't like to be treated like a fool when I may have been cheated and then bullied by a bunch of tough looking guys. Part of my reason for wanting to make this as public as possible is people in the gaming industry have a reputation for being a bit rough and I am a little worried about possible repercussions of upsetting them. Don't they have to answer to government agencies? The casino manager continued to deny there was anything wrong with the cards despite may demonstration. I asked if I could examine the cards further and demonstrate to his satisfaction that the marking would give a player an advantage. He told me " that's not going to happen" I asked if I could put my initials on some of the marked cards to be sure they were preserved. He refused with a "dismissive smirk" I am certain in my heart that they will destroy those cards now as soon as possible. Prior to my noticing the marked deck of cards we had some very unusual behavior on table P16. One player "saw the flop" every time 15 times in a row, raised pre flop 10 out of the 15 times and reprised 8 times. He was doing this very aggressive play with what were often later to be shown a quite weak cards (A5, J2). He was seated at position 5 and had at least one friend at the table in seat 7. Please examine the video tape from table P16 for a few hours prior to 7pm and see if a pattern of suspicious behavior emerges. I do not want to accuse the young player in question of being a cheat, he may just be a thrill seeking erratic kid having fun. However having a marked deck on a table does raise a concern worth review and his play was the most aggressive I have ever seen with such weak cards...................... However I am willing to assume that the cards could have been marked by another player earlier. The casino did not express any interest in either investigating this matter or acknowledging a problem may have existed. Casino staff and management attitude was consistently denial and minimizing the issue from everyone I spoke with. It was implied that I would not be welcome in the poker room again and since they have a virtual monopoly on low limit poker this would be something I regret....................... however I really don't want to play in a room where cheating is given a blind eye. Does a casino have any duty to try and prevent cheating in a poker room? I don't care about the $100 I lost in the poker game while we were playing with a marked deck. In fact if the casino did offer to refund my money I would ask that it be donated to charity. I only want to be treated fairly in a non intimidating manner and be confident that gaming in BC is managed with integrity.

[blknines 0]

Interesting story. This seems like something they would do, try to intimidate you into dropping your accusations so they dont have to deal with any conroversy. I am glad the man who wrote the article is speaking up.

[Frebius 0]

I would agree about his speaking up. However as far as the player Quote "Seeing the Flop". Unless they do it different in Canada then they do in the States it is impossible to "SEE the Flop" unless he is working with the casino. That is the purpose of a burn card. He might be able to see what the burn card is but would not be able to act prefop because he "SAW THE FLOP" as the flop is covered with the burn card. I am very tired right now and that might not make much sense but I run my own game and I know that the reason for the burn card is to prevent cheating with a marked deck.

[blknines 0]

Ya, there is no way to see the flop before it comes out. Maybe he was just saying that he stayed in for the flop every time, even with his bad cards.

[aucu 3]

As an update I did go to the River Rock for a few hours the other day and enjoyed it just fine. All the cards looked new with no wear, The games had plenty of action. I sat in at a 10-20 table for about 4 hours.Twice during that time someone in the room made a big public stink about some problem, one guy was PO'ed that the bar maid took away his wine after last call and I don't know what the other one was about. I'll be back to the River Rock soon.

[mx957 0]

Ok, I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist or anything but how sold is the email? I mean if I am going to go to the trouble of marking cards to hussle a card game would I really do that for a 2/4 limit game?Seems to me the risk/reward on getting caught/making a payday on a 2/4 limit game would be just absurd. Just my .02 cents.....

[JJoseph 0]

Would make a great TV story? TILT? really, I can see the point ur making. Wheter u can "SEEE" the flop, u can definately see what has been dealt and that is more important. I, personally would have grabbed one of the goons by the nads and asked what his problem was. They dont want attention on their cheating schemes. You noticed and the Indian D LCLKS didnt think anyone could catch it. Wish I could have been there. Just a comment from another RED neck. These suited punks think they are ahead of the game till their caught.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

Ok, I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist or anything but how sold is the email?  I mean if I am going to go to the trouble of marking cards to hussle a card game would I really do that for a 2/4 limit game?

If the cards were marked intentionally, it probably would've been at one of the bigger tables (or a tournament - River Rock runs something like four a week), and then later the deck was used at a 2/4 table. But I kinda think it was just a worn deck... most of the River Rock tables use mechanical shufflers that can be pretty hard on the cards.I play at River Rock a couple of times a week in low limit (2/4 and 4/8) games, and they've always been good to me. Occasionally you get a couple of guys at a table who are clearly playing each other soft while raising the rest of the table to the limit, but I've never seen any behaviour that made me think the dealers or management were crooked as the guy's email kind of implies. Seems to me he most likely just had a bad night and overreacted.

[threesfull 0]

I can't beleive that some people thought the original poster meant that the young player could ACTUALLY SEE the cards before they were dealt, when he said that he SAW THE FLOP 15 times in a row.Laughing histerically out loud.For those obviously just learning the game, seeing the flop means you called all pre-flop bets and were still in the hand when the flop was dealt.Incidentally, "flop" is the 1st three cards that are dealt all at once after the first betting round.

[Mr Monkey 0]

i have played at the river rock and have never had a problem

[bluff2much 0]

mx957 wrote: Ok, I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist or anything but how sold is the email? I mean if I am going to go to the trouble of marking cards to hussle a card game would I really do that for a 2/4 limit game? I can win a 100 pretty easily in a 2/4 game. With a marked deck...it would just be that much easeir and perhaps more profitable. Not only that but 2/4 is where most new players start...fishing season open...to the op...I know of a guy was in the same situation. He asked for a new deck..he didn't say why...because he didn't want to freak out the players at the table. When they didn't bring one and He was delt another A. He looked at the dealer and said thats the Ad. He then flipped it over and tore it up. Needless to say they brought a new setup. Things to consider; it was 10/20 game...and he was a regular in the game...so the dealer/floor manager new him.sorry should have posted this when the original was out.