pot odds and draws

[SiLi 0]

Hey all, I've been running into this situation alot lately and I'd just like to get some opinions about what the "proper" play is hereThe Scenario : NL 100 game (doesn't matter if its 200-600 range)Someone from early position raises it the stand 3-4bb and a middle position calls and you're on the button with something like A9 or better suited. The BB also calls making it 4 players to the flop. The flop comes K J 7 or Q J 6 ( doesn't really matter which) but it has 2 of your suits giving u 4 to a nutflush. Let's say the BB and the other two players go all-in. So you have no pair but a nut flush draw. You're being laid 3:1 on your money and you assume you're only a 2:1 dog (assuming no1 else is on the flush draw). My question is, is this a simple call because you're being given the proper odds? Or do you muck fearing 2 or maybe more of your outs are being taken by the other players and you can wait for a better spot to get your money in?Any feedback here would be appreciated as I'm just looking to hear the rationale behind making or not making this call. It seem's to come up alot when I play live. Someone always has a flush draw or and open ended straight draw (on a rainbow flop) vs 3 callers.

[amarillotg 0]

i think you can probably find a better spot to get your money in than here. its one thing to go all-in on a flush draw but its another thing to call an all-in. your outs are pretty much strictly the flush outs (i don't think spiking an ace is going to win you this pot). if your up against a set then your in big trouble as he's drawing to 9 outs after the turn for a full boat.

[Diboss 0]

You stated that this is a cash game, and in that case, this is an automatic call (for me at least). In the best case scenario, all your flush cards are live and you're gonna win here maybe 30-35% of the time. Even if two of your flush cards are taken, you're still looking to win about30% of the time. You're getting 3-1 pot odds on a 2.3-1 or better call, so that's an easy one for me. If it was a tournament on the other hand, then it would be difficult, even though I still don't think I'd fold there either. Tournaments aren't won by scared or passive players.Oh, by the way...bad call preflop, but to each their own.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Regardless of whether it is a cash game or a tournament, calling all-in when on a draw is totally different from betting all-in on a draw. My opinion - better times to get all your money in the pot :wink:

[bascomeb 0]

If there is an all in on the flop in a cash game then someone called then you're probably up against a set which is big trouble and not wortht he money laid to call here. I'd fold

[Diboss 0]

Regardless of whether it is a cash game or a tournament, calling all-in when on a draw is totally different from betting all-in on a draw. My opinion - better times to get all your money in the pot :wink:

I agree with you on the first part, I'm just saying that when the math is there, and especially that much there, there's no decision to be made, it should be automatic. If you can't let the math decide for you in a cash game, then you shouldn't be playing in games of that limit.If it was only one guy who had pushed all-in then it would be a pretty automatic fold, but the second caller gives you the right odds to go for it.

[bascomeb 0]

not really because the second caller is likely holding 2 pair or better and that leaves you at less then 2 to 1 to win this pot. You are 2 to 1 if you are facing top pair and you have 9 outs. You hav much less if you have 9 outs and he has a set cause he has 10 outs on river to get a boat

[Diboss 0]

Alright, I just took the easy way to solving this now. I just checked cardplayer's odds calculator. If we're up against a set and an independent two pair, we're slated to win 29% of the time (my calcs were close :-) ). And that folks, is the WORST case scenario. So in reality, we're going to win that at least 29% of the time, again, EASY CALL getting 3-1. If you wish to verify, here's the hands I put in.A 9 vs.Q J vs.5 5 after a Q J 5 flopI personally hate playing drawing hands, but a good draw post-flop with more than one other player is pretty nice.

[bascomeb 0]

well i guess you want to go for it thats up to you.But for me I dont like to call an all in for draw because in my mind I think I can find a better spot to get my money in. I believe that I don't have to make this call. I can wait and beat this guy later when he's drawing to a 2 outer on the river.

[Diboss 0]

We all play differently, so we can't judge each other's tendencies, but I just wanted to show that the math was there, and this is a game of math. Also for my own sake since I've been like you and I'd normally fold there (in a tournament, but not a cash game), But now that I know...

[Pokerdad2222 0]

Alright, I just took the easy way to solving this now. I just checked cardplayer's odds calculator. If we're up against a set and an independent two pair, we're slated to win 29% of the time (my calcs were close ). And that folks, is the WORST case scenario. So in reality, we're going to win that at least 29% of the time, again, EASY CALL getting 3-1. If you wish to verify, here's the hands I put in. A 9 vs. Q J vs. 5 5 after a Q J 5 flop I personally hate playing drawing hands, but a good draw post-flop with more than one other player is pretty nice.

This may not be the worst case scenario because you may be up against k t chasing the flush or against a set of fives and something like KK which gives the set an extra 2 outs with the another j and Q. I know the Kt may be stretching it but how much does a hand like KK instead of JQ change those odds. Just asking because I am really curious about that scenario.

[Diboss 0]

Just by thinking about it, the KK is better for us than the QJ, because the QJ has 4 outs whereas KK only has 2. If we're up against another flush draw,then you would be right that we're in trouble, dropping us to 21.6%. In that case it would be a fold, but that is a very specific example. As we have it, vs. 98%+ of hands we're making a very profitable call, we're only in trouble against a set and a flush draw or against a pair/flush draw and a set, there's very few situations where this is a fold. This is really an interesting topic, wonder if we can get the input of our patron (Daniel Negreanu) on this, would be appreciated *hint* :-)

[feedmykids 0]

easy call in a cash game. In cash games you always make the call with the right odds. period. Only a tournament player would tell you not to call this. Having the right odds means if you simulated this hand 100,000 times you would win money overall. If you didn't call you would be losing money.

[TheIceman05 0]

I hate the "you can find better spots" arguments. That's tournament poker. You don't "pick your spots" in cash games. If a call is even mildly profitable, you call. Making 100 bucks is of equally good value as losing 100 bucks is negative value. If a call is profitable, you make it. Going broke doesn't hurt you, because YOU'RE NOT REALLY BROKE! You just rebuy and do it again. Folding when you're a mathematical favorite to make money is UNFORGIVABLY BAD POKER.Ice

[allinbluff35 0]

I hate the "you can find better spots" arguments. That's tournament poker. You don't "pick your spots" in cash games. If a call is even mildly profitable, you call. Making 100 bucks is of equally good value as losing 100 bucks is negative value. If a call is profitable, you make it. Going broke doesn't hurt you, because YOU'RE NOT REALLY BROKE! You just rebuy and do it again. Folding when you're a mathematical favorite to make money is UNFORGIVABLY BAD POKER.Ice

[CieloAzor 0]

This is a fairly elementary call in a cash game.In a tournament, it's still a call.

[SiLi 0]

thx for all the replies folks, it was nice to hear everyone's comments. In this scenario I would make the call as well but to be honest I do have a harder time making this call when I've built my stack up to 4 or more times the buyin and I'm put in the same situation.

[TheIceman05 0]

thx for all the replies folks, it was nice to hear everyone's comments. In this scenario I would make the call as well but to be honest I do have a harder time making this call when I've built my stack up to 4 or more times the buyin and I'm put in the same situation.

(nod) That's understandable. Sometimes we avoid profitable situations because the variance in said situation is undesirable. (shrug) Nothing to be ashamed of. Optimally, you'd call. But sometimes you sacrifice equity for comfort. I feel uncomfortable making certain mathematically correct plays in limit hold'em, and sacrifice equity because I JUST DON'T LIKE ITIce