Laying down Aces?

[JimmyWellington 1]

I was watching the WPT rerun last night with Moneymaker and Gordon where it's three way all in action on the last hand. Moneymaker said before he looked at his cards, "unless it's aces, I'm folding". He then went all in with JJ. This reminded me of a little section from Sklanksy's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players where he talks about a situation where he thinks it would be wise to lay down aces preflop. If you haven't read it, here's what he's talking about.<Sklanksy - I'm paraphrasing here>You're at the final table of the WSOP (a few years ago), prize money is as follows - First - 1.5 millionSecond - 1 millionThird - 700kFourth - 500kFifth - 300k10k-20k blinds, and you're in distant fifth with 30k. Chip leader has 2 million, other three have exactly 1 million (so you can see this is a highly unlikely scenario) The three stacks with 1 million go all in against each other. So barring a split pot, you will go from fifth and 300k, to third and 700k, just by sitting there. That's when he says it would be right to fold pocket aces, since you will make an extra 400k and have no legitimate chance to win the tournamentNow he says that your aces will not stand up against three other hands almost half the time.Anyway, here's my question. You're in a tournament around the early/middle stages. You have pocket aces on the button, first player goes all in with more than you have, two people call by the time it gets to you. If you call and lose, you're out (no rebuys). Do you lay them down? If not, how many callers would it take for you to lay them down? I realize that this is a very uncommon situation, but I'm just curious as to the math involved. What would be the percentages against 3 callers, 4 callers, etc. No matter what hands are out there, you're going to be a favorite over each individual hand, but at what point do you become the underdog against all of them together?

[Wlleiotl 0]

if you dont guarantee yourself more cash by folding, you call. so early/middle stages you call in an instant because you're much better risking busting to get a big stack than surviving with the stack you have

[Guest]

You have to call...... there is a huge difference between making proper laydowns at a final table where your decision nets you +XXX amount of money in actuality, versus laying down a big hand in the early middle stages of the tournament, where you should be trying to build a big stack. I know some say you are trying to "survive", but survival gets you nowhere if it means not having enough chips to only play "real" hands.In a big buy-in tournament with long levels, if 7 people have gone all in in front of me, I *MAY* fold them. In a $200 or less buy-in daily tournament with 20 minute blind levels, I'm calling in an instant. I'm sure you can see the reasoning there, but if any of you can't, I can post them seperately.

[Waffles2003 1]

I have laid down monster hands when two people ahead of me went all in just because it is all about placing when playing in a tournament and most of the times i will let people take each other out. However, I dont think I will ever fold ACES especially if you are already in the money.

[Kalf 0]

I just read an article in Player magazine (Nikki Zeiring on the cover) that described a guy who folded AA after the 3 players in front of him went all- in and had him covered. The percentages were this, according to the article- the AA was the favored hand, at 40% to 30% to 15 and 15, or something like that, and explained that that stat was misleading. Even though they were favored individually against the other hands, AA was going to win the pot only 40% of the time, and lose it 60% of the time. Because you're not playing the AA against each of those hands, you're playing AA against ALL of those hands. Think about it this way- Out of four hands, where all 5 board cards will be exposed, how often is ONE PAIR going to win? AA is a terrible drawing hand, and you won't hit trips very often, so you are pretty much deadlocked into one pair. In the case at hand, a flush beat a straight on the river, and AA woulda come in third.