
MrConceit
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Posts posted by MrConceit
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Ideas? I'd hope it was a 9QK so you would win. But perhaps it's the case 7 so the guy with arguably the worst hand wins with quads?Here is the FLOP and TURN3s 2c 5s Ah 5h 4h Ad 3c As 2d 7s 8d Kd Qd Ac Qc <----me Ts Jc 7h FLOP7d TURN......any idea on river? -
Yeah I think your fold on the end is wrong. If MP1 or Button had a Q I think you would have seen a raise by now. And the only Ax that beats you is AK, AQ (not counting AA hah). If you still called on the turn on your nut flush draw on a paired board, I think you HAVE to call on the river. The J on the flop makes no kickers play other than AK. I really don't know what all those overcallers have, but if they didn't raise on the turn/river I really don't think they have your ace pair beat. And the pot size makes it worth seeing if BB has AK or a random Qx hand.The time to fold the hand, if you were going to, is when the turn paired the Q. Since you're at the river anyway, I think you call with your ace pair where no kickers play but AK.[edit]Well I guess I didn't address somebody already had the made flush, but I really think they woulda raised by now if they did. Unless they got utterly teriffied by turn pairing. But the same reasoning stands and you ARE closing the action. Nobody has every shown an ounce of aggression except BB who has never stopped. Only likely hands that beat you are AA, AK, AQ, QQ, JJ, and you're already in a huge pot, call 1 more BB and see what happens.Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is SB with [Ah], [3c
]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.5. CO posts a blind of $0.75. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.Flop: (13.50 SB) [Jh
], [8h
], [Qh
] (6 players)Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.Turn: (12.75 BB) [Qs
] (6 players)Hero checks, BB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls.River: (16.75 BB) [Ac
] (4 players)Hero checks, BB bets, MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero folds.Final Pot: 19.75 BBI first called from the small blind because of how many were in the pot, the call of the raise was automatic because of the pot size. I think that I made a massive mistake on the end by folding as I'd only have to win this pot 1 time in 20. I just didn't think my kicker would be good. I think I made a big mistake though since I hit a different hand then i was going for
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Very very ballsy for O8/b. I'm not really sure I even like it it's so ballsy. If you had AKKQ double suited quite possibly, but with it being QQ it's scary.If it was PLO alone then maybe moreso also. You got the best of all worlds though that they all had low hands, laugh.I would have figured 1 of them for AAxx or KKxx and likely not had the balls you did.It will be interesting to see final board.
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OMG I think I'll reply to the actual thread. I have two laydowns. One that was utterly stupid first.This first one is rather a long time ago, I think it was 5/10, I'm giving this from memory, I only CLEARLY remember my hand and final board:I have TT in like UTG. I raise preflop, some mid guy 3bets, somebody coldcalls, sb folds, BB calls 2 cold, I cap all still in call. Flop is JQK. The flop is ugly but I have an open ended that's likely live unless somebody does have AT already. I bet, 3better raises, next guy coldcalls again, bb folds, I call. Turn is like a 2, I check, preflop-3better bets, we both call. River is like a 5.Final board is JQK[2][5]. Now first to act, for no real reason I fold to no bet because I missed my straight draw and was SURE I was beat, it wasn't HU remember. They check it through and it's 99 vs 88 and 99 wins. I was utterly livid at myself. I was at the river and folded for no reason other than disgust at missing and being sure I was beat.I learned a terribly revolutionary lesson to not fold to zero bet, and to possibly call for just 1 more bet if you're already at the river, though that mostly only applies to HU, not multi-way pots.Second hand was also a long time ago, and screw the details, I don't really remember. I had a suited connector, say 87 of hearts. I flopped a flush draw, by turn it was 3way. One guy was basically betting the whole way. I hit my flush on the river, and those two start getting into a betting war. Like first guy bet, I think I flat called for the combo of wanting the other guys overcall and deciding not to raise my 8 high flush. So it went - aggressor bets, I call, other guy suddenly wakes up and raises, aggressor 3bets. I'm like uh.... And almost time out, and decide to fold. Sleeper does cap and he's called. I was SURE the suddenly woken up sleeper had a higher made flush than me. It turns out it was a set vs two pair. I think the guy waking up had rivered two pair. Anyway I felt like an utter and complete idiot.So I learned from that also not to make silly laydowns without being Very Very sure. These were both quite a bit ago in my poker career. It's not like I never make hard laydowns anymore, but it's a lot rarer. There's so many crazy overaggressive people I tend to call down if I have any kind of strong hand.You can't even always tell if the people are utter maniacal fools or they read a bit too much 2+2. Those 2+2ers are crazy.
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Yeah original thread poster said it kinda bad, but I actually agree with him to some degree. Not headphones, that's fine. But the over-use of hats and sunglasses. It's fine to use them if you want, but people are acting like it's manditory, and "WOW, you don't wear sunglasses?!?". Like it's now a required uniform for poker players. When I said people above, I don't mean posters in this thread, I mean the random newcomers of poker, mainly live tourney players.I personally think sunglasses are kind of gay, but it's just that, personal. I wouldn't look down on other people who want to wear them a bit. I just get amused/annoyed both that people think hats/sunglasses are somehow required gear nowadays.Though just to be amusing, I might sometime wear a Jason-hockey-mask to a tourney and see if I get away with it. CAN YOU READ ME NOW BEEOTCH?
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Laugh, is the proclivity to go allin at the drop of a hat what defines a great player to you?Those guys suck!give me Phil Laak! he goes all-in more then any of those guys!Dutch. -
I've done collusion online in the past. I specifically mean sharing card info with a friend. I have always refused to do any chain raising or anything really other than staying out of each others way. I mainly have used colluding as a way of knowing what was going on in the hand with a friend and vice versa. It's far more interesting if you know what's going on. And then you can discuss during the hand what's happening. I do the same thing with some friends just by observing their games.I have online "acquaintances" who do more, and have asked me to do more, but I refuse. I didn't really want to even share card info ever, but a friend or two of mine talked me into it in the past.I don't do this very much anymore, and almost always play alone in my cash games. I don't think I'm a better or worse player because of it, I never have used it very much for serious games. It was just a norm amoung some of my friends and I got dragged along for a while. I have tended to do worse when doing it anyway, I don't seem to concentrate on the game as much or as well. Plus it's not like you can 3/4 table and still collude, and that's mostly what I do nowadays, multitable.1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it?
I do believe cheating is immoral and wrong. But to me there are degrees. I refuse to collude with more than really 1 person at a table at a time. I refuse to do more than sharing card info basically. Most people wouldn't agree with me about degrees I suppose. I see poker as one of my serious hobbies, and I've never wanted to or liked to cheat at anything I take seriously. I never cheated at chess, and would never "truly" cheat at poker. I hate the very idea of teams of people taking out SnGs (though I've been asked to do so and refused). The whole sucker argument I think is stupid.2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?
I really don't know what I think of this question. Others have answered it in many ways... I imagine I'd be similar to Aseem on this. I really don't know. I never have, nor do I ever intend, on cheating live. Sigh, this is a slippery slope. I may have to tell my friends I won't share card info again. It's just fun to play together, and if you know what they have during a hand the action is more fun to watch.3. how do you feal cheaters should be--if at all--punished? what would you do / have you done if you find/found a cheater in your game who was a stranger? what if he is/was a best friend?
No opinion.4. how do you think casinos/cardrooms should handle cheating (considering both prevention and reaction)? how do you think home games should handle it? how do you personally, if at all, protect against being cheated from in poker games? -
His question is whether it's immoral, not whether it's against the law. It's rather silly to talk about speeding 5-15 miles over the speed limit as being immoral.Most people seem to think if it's against the law, that it's worse. I'm kind of the reverse. There are so many stupid dumb laws. But you have to be aware of ones that are felonies, at least ones that are still enforced. It's still against the law to engage in oral sex and any number of ridiculous things in most states, but people don't care.People don't feel it's WRONG/immoral to speed, it just happens to be against the law. Though breaking these laws are hardly the same as breaking ones such as not killing people. There are degrees.It's fine to think cheating isn't immoral, I'm a little divided on what I fully consider cheating. Anything that gives me a serious edge that is against the rules I feel very uncomfortable with.I'll respond to Aseem's questions myself first, just thought I'd comment on this immoral vs illegal thing first.Oh by the way, I didn't mean to pick on you Norman, I liked everything you posted, and thought it was well thought out. I just think people make immoral = illegal too often, they aren't the same thing. And most people seem to think illegal is worse, I think kinda the opposite, not that I'm necessarily right.2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?Absolutely not. Has anyone here ever walked along railroad tracks? Did 66mph in a 65 zone? How about beating the snot out of someone else? That's Assault- and you're cheating the law.But specifically, in poker, cheating is not immoral- many of times they honestly don't understand. They've never been caught. When they are, most of the time they repent. -
If limping here is pointless I prefer to fold. You have zero info about either the blinds or the UTG+1 who limped. 5s are yucky. If either blind calls the raise it's even more disgusting unless you flop a set.Oh, one other point, it isn't just the two of you in the hand if you limp. It's surely the BB and likely the SB. So if they get a piece when you flop a set you could easily get some action.Raise the pot + 1big blind.Fold to a reraise, bet the pot on any rag flop fold to any signfigant action.Limping here is pointless. You need an almost perfect flop to get any value from a set at all. You both have to hit it. -
A fine post. But as a side question, how do you lose 2x the standard buyin in 2 hands at a table? It's basically impossible in limit where standard buyin is like 25 BB. In NL you mean you go allin both hands and lose them both? That is kinda rough. Well ok, if you cap every street in limit that's what? 12 BB? So it's almost possible in limit if you cap every single street, but not quite, you'd still have a BB left!after a night of crappy poker, sitting down at table and losing twice the standard buyin for the table on the first two hands... tilting is natural. I get up, step outside, yell some curses. Sometimes I'll drive to the store and buy a twinkie or something to smash and grind. The important thing is to step away, I've found. Take a walk. Pet you dog. Tell your woman how much you love her and how much you absolutely hate Poker.Then come back and try again. Don't ever tilt yourself out of not playing, just tilt yourself into taking a breather. -
I fully agree with you that ABC poker does not always maximize edges, but it does TEND to on low limit poker. People will call 1 flop bet with the most improbable holdings, and sometimes call turn too, but especially the flop. The main advantage of a free flop is to get the double turn as you said, or maybe more if they hit a PP or some gutshot draw they wouldn't have called the flop with. But a hell of a lot of low limiters will call the flop with a gutshot, and still raise if they hit on the turn. I feel that typically you will make more long term money off letting fools pay flop bets with whatever, than trying to give them a cheap card to make a second best hand. I'm talking in this exact senario.
ABC poker does not always maximize your return. yes, i did miss 1/2 a BB, but i intend to try to make more than that on the turn. instead of 0.25 + 0.50, i open the door and try to extract 0.50 + 0.50. thats a +EV of 0.25. see the above post before yours, and a ton of the posts above that.That statement is just ignorant. Don't play at a level where you don't want to maximize return because that's what winning poker is. Amassing every edge possible so that the math can take over and your +EV betting becomes steady profit for you. You summed it up; you missed 1/2 a BB. You're not making it up in anywhere later this play, so you'll need to flop more full houses to make up for your inability to extract the maximum on those you do. That's luck, not skill.
First off, you're utterly correct that any ace is seeing the river no matter what you do. But if there is an Ace out there you'll get action, which is what you want anyway, by betting out.As far as your percents I have zero idea where you got them. Ax (x being anything other than an A or K) is 23 percent to win on the flop, and 16 percent to win on the turn. It's still 16 percent because now their outs aren't just their kicker, but also the card that came on the turn, which would give them a higher boat. Check any of my percents at twodimes.com.Btw, I did read the rest of your post, and you're not wrong that you can potentially win more money the way you said. But against typical opponents who like to call too much, it's just typically best to bet out here, and make them pay to draw. Unless you know for a fact they will bet their lower PP or utter bluff. Besides, to any player with a CLUE (and yeah, I know lots of them don't have it), your checking the flop SCREAMS of the fact that you hit and hit hard. You raised preflop, and now you're checking when the flop is AAK? Even if you have TT-QQ here, you bet out to represent the ace. Only Ax or KK checks here normally. Because they want to slowplay. Any normal preflop raiser bets here.
dangerous? 0.16 % by the turn. 0.26 % by the river. ok, i can see how it will get dangerous a little bit, but an opponent with an ace is going to showdown regardless of improvement.Secondly, this is a dangerous hand to slowplay. Given the commonness of Ax at this level, a free card beats you MORE OFTEN than it makes a second best hand. Draws have odds to chase anyways and perceive greater implied odds for themselves since the opponent has trips. Making them pay to draw here is still good because while you want them to hit, they're not paying you off when they missed, and they will chase regardless. 2/3 to 9/10 of the time, you're giving free cards that, while they can hurt you (when someone is slowplaying their now-beastly A-2), they don't help you do anything but miss bets. 1/3 of the time, they make a hand that can pay you off on 1 street, by sacrificing 2 streets of betting. -
There's nothing wrong with playing a .02/.04, gotta start somewhere. And I believe it, people will ask for money at all times, I just figured it happened more on the "higher limits on a site". Apparently it goes on everywhere!You won't believe it Mr. Conceit, but I'm playing the microest micro limit on stars .02/.04 limit to build my bankroll.And yes, almost every session someone asks to borrow 19 cents or a dollar or something. Begging happens at every level. -
Yeah Ice already answered you, but everything I've read backs this up. If you're not playing against utter newbies you rarely should draw to a flush, unless it's a rare hand where you're last to act and most of the table limps and doesn't raise.If you're not really late in acting, you'll never know if you have proper odds to draw. And supposedly without utterly clueless people few hands will have enough limpers.
really? if you have four hearts and you draw one to a heart, you will get it 1 in 5 times about, so if you have four opponents or more, it's a good draw, right? as for straights, only open-ended. am i wrong?aseemHe was kinda wrong, though.It's probably too late, but don't be paying to draw at straights and flushes. Unlike Hold'em, you rarely have the odds. In 5 draw, those who draw lose. And, yes, I went through a draw poker phase a little while ago. I'm a nerd. Sue me.Ice -
The blinds are so small, it doesn't seem totally worth it to me to raise. And you have _zero_ info about whether the blinds are loose/tight because the tourney just began. UTG+1 is pretty early, so he could very easily have a solid hand if he's not a fool. I'd just call and see if I flopped a set since the blinds are so small compared to stack sizes. If they were larger I'd raise.Obviously you don't have the pot odds to try to flop a set off pure pot odds, but with implied I think it's fine. I'm not hugely against raising here, but with no knowledge of whether the blinds are loose/tight and the fact that the limper is so early, I'd see a flop cheap.[edit]I'm not even against folding since only 1 limper and 55 is pretty darned weak for a PP. Until I know tables I somewhat respect early limpers and tread cautiously with low PPs.A friend and I are having an argument over a stupid hannd. I know what's right, but I want to put it to a vote to prove it to him and make him realize the err of his ways.Tournament just began, first level. Say the blinds are 25-50 and you have around 10,000 in chips. No limit holdem.8 handed, you are on the button with 5-5UTG+1 limps in but everyone else folds to you (on the button)Call, raise (if so how much), or fold? -
I really quite agree with most of the points you give here. I'm just not a HUGE fan of WLLH, but it was my first book also as I started like a year ago and SSHE wasn't out yet.I agree that SSHE is a difficult book if you're utterly new to poker (or new to limit poker), but I think it is possible as a first book if you put a lot of time into reading and understanding it, or have some background playing first.I totally agree with what you say on ToP.WLLH just advocates too weak a style for me to wholeheartedly advise it as my first choice for a beginner book. His 2nd edition isn't as bad as the first, but I still don't like it TOTALLY. I'd still recommend Gary Carson's book over WLLH as a first.I've been digging through Ed Miller's 2+2 posts to learn more about his book and methods (haven't read SSHE, I'm pretty sure I should, seeing what I'd be getting into), and he mentions in there that it's meant to complement Lee Jones and is an advanced book; while SSHE is mentioned as a how-to book, make sure that you have a good base of fundamentals because Miller's book isn't about beating low limits, it's about applying everything to beat low limits for the maximum; not a beginner text despite the level it covers.Theory of Poker is key. You will "get" so much more out of every other book, and every discussion, and figure out so many concepts on your own naturally once you've digested TOP. At the same time, understanding TOP sometimes requires direct context from your best game, so I'd recommend: WLLH, TOP, SSHE, and then TOP again. Good luck.Also, the loose players who say Sklansky is bad, well, if they read it and understood it, they'd know he's NOT all hand groupings and odds counting and being tight. He does teach a complete and aggressive style if you actually read it and not judge on hearsay or one thumbing through at Barnes and Noble muttering to yourself "numbers? I hate numbers. Talk about poker, dammit." -
Why? I'm just curious. This tourney in fact was proof that Moneymaker wasn't utterly a fluke. And I'm not saying he's amazing, but this tourney proved his one single WSoP wasn't the only thing he could ever do well in. Shooting Star gives bounties on all the Pros they decide to put bounties on. And Moneymaker was the only bounty to make the final few people.And Phil Gordon, well actually I won't get into it, there was a long thread on him recently. He's very solid is all I'll say.i could care less brother. all i had to hear were those two names.im uninterested. -
My main lifelong passion is Chess. Sadly I'm not amazing, but I'm solid. I've played tons of online and a good amount of RL tourneys for chess.Next is probably ping pong, pool, basketball, scrabble in that order.I plan on getting into bridge in the next few years. I've asked some of my good bridge friends what are the best first couple books to read.I used to like Magic, but haven't been into it for years.
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It depends what you want to do. SS2 gives great advice for each section of the book, but it isn't like an exhaustive tome on each subject. It just gives you solid great advice for each game. SSHE gives very solid complete info for beating one game, low limit hold'em. It is very much a how-to book. SS2 isn't that kind of book imo. Though I've only read about half of it so far. I LOVE the Harman limit section, but it isn't exactly a total howto book for limit hold'em.So if you want to play particularly low limit hold'em, I'd recommend SSHE or Gary Carson's The Complete Book of Hold'em, or lastly the Lee Jones book.In that order.And as WRTO said, when you finish your first book on limit hold'em, then read ToP. Basically whatever you do, read ToP pretty early in your career, but a HOWTO book first is best, unless you already know what you're doing.i havent read small stakes yet, but i hear good things.should it have priority over SS2? -
I've only played on Stars a little now, recently put some cash in there just to play in multis (including Negreanu Open stuff). But in my limited experience the players with Hot-Chick pics have tended to be good.The main one I'm remembering was playing in a NL multi and was quite good if a bit overaggressive.Now I have my serious doubts as to the fact it was even a female player, much less a hot one, but that isn't the point of the thread.Have any of you ever noticed the following on PokerStars? It seems like players who have a picture of a hot woman are very easy to beat. Now granted, I play .25 Stud Hi/lo. I suck, I admit it. I can't make it on the $1.00 tables. But I just find it funny. Seems wierd to me. -
He hasn't just been playing for one year, I perhaps spoke imprecisely. I'm saying by the end of every year he's ahead, a lot. But on 1 single month he might be down solid that one single month. I was just trying to imply long-run he wins.Your definition of a winning/losing player is very strange. You're saying if you ever bust out, ever, you're a losing player? That makes no sense. If he chooses to keep, for example, 200 BB on a given site, and he busts out of that site, but YTD he's withdrawn approx 800 BB from the site, how does this make him a losing player? He keeps money on like 5 sites.He doesn't keep all of his money online at all times, he rebuys if he ever busts from a single site. My point was there are valid differing styles to play, and my friend plays to games that do well with his style re: shorthanded play.He's played poker for about 7 years, and online poker for 3. He banked 140k last year (for online poker cash games) with a full-time job he hadn't quit yet. He wanted to keep the health benefits of his job, for personal issues (he has a family).I'm not trying to brag about online friends I know, that would be stupid. Truly bigtime players make WAY more than 140k online. I'm just using him as an example of Loose-Aggressive being a viable style, especially if you choose the correct places to use this style.
I understand what you are trying to say here, but one year is not really the "long run" everyone is talking about. Eventually he will take a swing that will take him down to bust, at that point in time, he is officially a loosing poker player, his roll is gone and he can no longer play the game - unless of course you want to start over with another investment, but even though you would have a new roll, you are still a loosing poker player at that point.I have a friend who plays loose-aggressive (very loose and very aggressive) and he destroys poker in the long run (like in the year). -
Haha, that rocks. Yeah the good convenience store chains give you a day or two of class, and one of the things they stress repeatedly is to cooperate with robbers, blah blah. I was never robbed, but my brother has been when he worked in one after high school. He got thrown over the counter (maybe they were worried he had a button he could push?), but didn't get hurt in reality, though he was shook up at the time.I worked at a convience store chain just after high school. In the two years that i worked there I lost count of how many times I was robbed there, but I do remember that I saw 9 guns in that time. The only one that scared me after the first time was a kid who was shaking with a gun in his hand. Couldn't have been more that 16 years old. I had to calm him down and explain how to rob a place properly.... -
The problem with this is all of the longshot draws you're talking about rarely hit. Make them try to PAY for the draw since they aren't going to hit them very often anyway. With this flop you basically have to hope there is 1 (or maybe 2) people with an ace and they'll raise you on the turn. If nobody has an ace here you aren't going to make much money anyway. Unless you're in a table full of total fish, and if you are, get them to pay pay pay. In other words bet.[edit]Btw, a tight player doesn't call the flop bet on a gutshot with 7:1 odds anyway when the board is paired, so he won't even be there for the turn. Without the board pair possibly, but with a board pair and 7:1? HAH!A side note, I vote this for the best phrase of the week:SmasherooGood action on the river for me when I have the stone cold frozen in liquid nitrogen hairy sticky full of love and joy nuts.i cut that last post short, but to continue...i dont think it should be that ABC... if you are playing against two tight players, betting the flop, then betting the turn, by the turn two good players will fold their gutshot draws / underpairs looking to set. give them a free card. if one of them has an ace, and you're out of position, then there will probably be a bet. if it goes check check check, you can assume that no one has an ace, and if you would have bet it would have been fold fold (yes unless someone else is slowplaying behind you).if you are playing two loose players and you're in position, or even in the middle, then betting the turn is a good idea. -
Yeah your tips were good because of the large blinds vs stack size to begin, but the fact that it's going to start 6 handed (or 5) means he can't wait TOO much. You should be trying to steal if first in a solid amount of the time if you have much of anything. Never limp (first in I mean) 5-6 handed, just about, unless you're trying to be tricky with a high PP or something.I see about 1/3 of the field going out in the first 2 hours, is that accurate? I was thinking the same thing when I read your post. I don't see how this tournament could last more than 3-4 hours, but if they say it usually lasts five, that probably means there are some very tight players. That or they just deal very slowly and take lots of breaks. -
Well it's just willpower and realizing that you can be outdrawn and you WANT them to be drawing slim -- I mean it's that in the long run.In the short-run, if you don't have this mindset yet, you usually just need to take a 5-10 min break, or longer if you're seriously out of control.Just take an hour break, read the forum, and then go back and crush them when you're feeling good after reading the forum (or whatever else you did for an hour).I do not know if this topic has been covered yet, but i was wondering what kind of techniques anyone uses to over come the feeling of being on tilt. My temper goes off like a shot, and it really affects my game. Any legit help would be greatly appreciated.
sit n go question
in General Poker Forum
Posted