CoranMoran
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Posts posted by CoranMoran
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (BB) ($201.60)UTG ($257.50)MP ($115.30)CO ($410.35)Button ($100.10)SB ($404.55)Preflop: Hero is BB with 8
, 71 fold, MP bets $3, 2 folds, SB calls $2.50, Hero calls $2Flop: ($10.20) 10
, 2, 9(3 players)SB checks, Hero bets $4.80, MP raises to $10, 1 fold, Hero calls $5.20Turn: ($30.20) 10(2 players)Hero bets $12, MP calls $12River: ($54.20) A
(2 players)Hero bets $22.30........Logic:I'm pleased with the flop and will be seeing the turn.I could check in hopes of keeping everyone around for a bigger payout if I hit.But I choose to play more aggressively to eliminate better hands.I feel Ace Highs and underpairs may have to fold to my funky flop bet.If I give him the benefit of the doubt, Villain's raise means an overpair.Though it's possible he could just have a couple of overs on a draw.I like the turn card a lot.It may take my out count from 8 to 15.But it is also almost surely a card that will slow down my opponent.My funky flop bet probably represented the T.So now even an overpair must be worried.I think I have two options here.I can check hoping for a scared check behind.In which case I can get away from my hand if I miss the river without spending any more dimes.But I decide to bet again.My reasoning is that I really don't think I get raised here by the overpair, so I'm setting my own price to play on.And with the board now paired, I may have some more fold equity against the overcard draws.Sadly, I miss the river.But it's not all bad news.My flop and turn presumably eliminated missed Ace-High hands (AK, AQ, AJ).And none of the Villains's overcard draws connected.My read is that Villain must have disliked both the turn and the river cards.I put him on one of the following hands: KK, QQ, JJ, KQ, KJ.While I hope he hasn't been playing with a T or the nut spade draw.Knowing I lose to everything at showdown, and hoping that my constant aggression and scary board could scare away a better hand, I bluff once more.How do you assess my reasoning here?Do my bets make any sense? Am i just spewing?Based on Villain's actions, what are my chances of getting a river fold?Please advise.As always, with strong player reads everything becomes simple.So to keep things interesting, please assume no reads going into the hand.--CM -
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($149.80)BB ($208.50)UTG ($264.60)MP ($190)Hero (Button) ($240.55)Preflop: Hero is Button with A
, K
2 folds, Hero bets $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1Flop: ($5.50) A, K, 10(2 players)BB bets $5.25, Hero calls $5.25Turn: ($16) 2(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $12, BB raises to $32, Hero calls $20River: ($80) A 
Villain checks-----------------------------------------------------How much can we hope him to call off?--cm -
So by the river, there is $80 in the pot.And Villain has ~$170 behind.If a brick hits and Villain bets, do we call or raise?If we end up getting it all in on the river, am I really ahead of much at showdown?--cm
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Just starting to convert from limit to no-limit cash games.So I'm a bit unfamiliar with these "big" relevant stacks.In limit, I would push push push here, knowing that even if I am up against a cooler, I can only lose so much.Should I be a lot more passive in this no-limit game?Or is my line below too weak?What should my plan be on different rivers?As always, poker is an easy game when you are familiar with your opponent's playing style.So let's assume no read here.Please advise.--CM==============================PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($149.80)BB ($208.50)UTG ($264.60)MP ($190)Hero (Button) ($240.55)Preflop: Hero is Button with A
, K2 folds, Hero bets $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1Flop: ($5.50) A, K, 10(2 players)BB bets $5.25, Hero calls $5.25Turn: ($16) 2(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $12, BB raises to $32, Hero calls $20......... -
In a random hand. the reason we should often be hesitant to raise is the ole "win one-lose two" scenario.If we are ahead, we win the one value bet.If we are behind, we get raised back and lose two bets.But that isn't the case here.In fact, it's the opposite!One more raise on the turn caps the action, so we can't get raised back.And with BB hangin around, paying off the world, our raise actually gains two bets of value.This combo means I am capping the turn every single time.Unless I read him as a maniac, I will likely just call the river if SB leads out again.Note: raising the river instead of capping the turn would be horrible logic since we would win less and lose more.--CM
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And I claim that any player that is poor enough to only be playing his own two cards, is also poor enough to do stuff like bluffing here with overs or overprotecting his pocket 7's.--cmI hardly give a 23/6.5 any credit for seeing anything but his own 2 cards -
I'm suggesting it could be even less.If Villain has any read on you whatsoever, and knows that you are the type to throw away overpairs in these situations, he should be firing at you non-stop.It's huge +ev for him to do so.When thinking about reads on our opponents, it's important not to forget about what their reads on us probably are.And we can't let them take advantage of those reads.--cmAlthough its nice to think that this is some donk overplaying top pair .... -
Before the funky turn bet, our plan here was to get a bet in on every street.So let's continue with the plan.Villain's donk bet is good for us.Because now, not only does the bet get in, but we also get to close the action.So we don't have to fear the dreaded check-raise on this coordinated board.Call the turn.And be happy if he leads the river again so you can call that too.Otherwise, put in the bet yourself.Resist the temptation to fold at any point.--CM
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What range of hands do you put Villain on after his turn bet?A key point no one seems to be addressing is that your overpair is completely and totally disguised.This means that Villain is rightly going to assume you are weak.And he could easilly be- using his position and your passiveness to buy the pot- value betting his Top Pair assuming it must be bestIf you had shown aggression at any point, and he countered with more aggression, you can often lay down the overpair.But when you keep it a secret like this, folding blindly is almost always scared poker.Point: when you are going to "trick" your opponent into thinking you are weak, you are encouraging him to play aggressively at you.So when you get what you want, and he predictably tries to push you around, you can't change your mind and fold!That combination has no logic behind it. --cmFWIW I folded here, mostly because, as tskillz said, if I call the turn I'm pretty much committed to calling a big river bet. -
Two very different issues being discussed in this hand.- Preflop decision- River decision.Here are my thoughts on the first....Reasons for limping:- We have a hand that plays well in multi-way pots. Limping encourages other limpers. And we would love to have the whole table playing this pot with me. And since our opponents are microstake crazies who typically make loose calls and overplay their hands, we could potentially win a large pot given the proper board. - It's cheap. It's less than 1% of my buyin. If I have to limp-fold, that doesn't hurt us too bad at all.= This combination of reasons is the classical Low Risk / High Reward situation that we love.Note: Despite this logic, we do still have to be observant and realistic. If we are at a table that is being raised preflop every hand, then our limp is not going to accomplish what we want. So putting chips in will just be a waste.Reasons Against Raising:- It kills the chances of playing the hand multi-way.- And anyone who calls us likely has our hand dominated.= So raising simply weeds out the hands we beat and pits us against the hands that beat us.Not the combination we are looking for.Reasons for Folding:- Ace Rags can be very tricky to play postflop. If hit top pair and play it poorly, we could lose a lot of chips. So we have to proceed carefully. But if we are skilled in our postflop play, and recognize that we will only be playing a big postflop pot with more than one pair, then we should be able to play it profitably against this group of opponents.Conclusion: Folding here out of position is probably very standard. But limping is perfectly fine on many tables as long as we play it properly after the flop.If we have the confidence to outplay our opponents, then we can profitably test the waters by limping in with hands like this.I do it all the time.Just be prepared to dump it unless we hit hard.
We will not play a big pot in a bad spot.if you limp big you may get in trouble, if you limp light you get stuck in too many bad spots multiway
And this is why we won't play a big pot unless we can beat 2-pair.If you give everyone amazing odds to see the flop you can run into rag two pairs
Simpler and easier, sure.But this doesn't make it more profitable.--CMit is much easier and in my mind better play to raise -
.... UTG checked, MP bet again, CO called, I overcalled, UTG overcalled.MP = 88CO = 66UTG = 55All three had a heart.--cmPokerStars Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is SB with K
, AUTG raises, MP 3-bets, CO caps, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP callsFlop: (17 SB) 4
, 7, 3(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsTurn: (10.5 BB) 3
(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsRiver: (14.5 BB) K(4 players)Hero checks .... -
Ahhh, I see.I agree that this is an important difference.But I certainly don't feel that it means we are more likely behind.In fact, since Villain only cold called preflop, this decreases the chances that he has the overpair to our Jacks.And the odds of him having a Ten becomes significantly greater.Because we have all see numerous players calling a preflop raise in position with any suited broadway cards.Based on this information, the chances of gaining value against a villain with a lesser pair have improved.And the chances of being behind have decreased.This encourages me even more to raise the flop.For value and/or protection.At this point, we only fear the set, right?CM, Although you're unlikely to read this again, the action postflop is NOT from the preflop raiser. The preflop raiser checked and folded. I think that makes a huuuuuuge difference.
As noted, if we can not trust the information that a flop raise gives us, then it is not the correct play:When you analyze losing less by c/r flop and fold to 3bet, you are forgetting to add in the times when it allows villain to 3bet bluff us of the best hand. Hell, this villain might even decide AT is the nuts and shove, and then you can't call. c/c the flop and re-eval turn is easily the best line here.
--cmFollowing this reasoning, if we're not going to fold our Jacks as is, I think we have to start off by asking ourselves one question:If we had additional information that we were behind, would we fold the overpair then?Maybe Villain is a known bluffer, so we wouldn't necessarily trust any information we got from him.Maybe we are already determined to take the hand to showdown, in which case we don't really need any more information.In these cases, simply calling down the whole way could be a reasonable and safe play. -
I see people frequently presume that when a villain folds to their value bet, it means they did something wrong.And that simply isn't the case.Because there will be many instances in which our opponent just doesn't have a hand to play on with.So we were not going to get any more value from him, no matter what we did.You just have to make your bet with your monster, and hope he has something to call you down with.If he doesn't have that Ace, then the hand will be over.If he does, he will pay us off.--CM
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My thoughts....Without a specific read, folding overpairs to basic continuation bets must be bad poker.When we have Jacks, what type of flop are we hoping for?This one is about as good as we're going to get.So if we fold here without any further information, we probably shouldn't be playing the hand in the first place.And a couple of c-bets from the preflop raiser is not reliable information to tell us we are likely behind.Following this reasoning, if we're not going to fold our Jacks as is, I think we have to start off by asking ourselves one question:If we had additional information that we were behind, would we fold the overpair then?Maybe Villain is a known bluffer, so we wouldn't necessarily trust any information we got from him.Maybe we are already determined to take the hand to showdown, in which case we don't really need any more information.In these cases, simply calling down the whole way could be a reasonable and safe play.But if we are looking for a way to be able to get off this hand before showdown, then we need to gather more information before we can intelligently do that.And the only way to get information is to provoke Villain into giving us some.And we do that by putting him to the test with a raise.By raising the flop, we are stating that you have a solid hand (probably at least Top Pair).So if Villain then reraises over the top of us, he is stating that he probably has Top Pair+ beat.And in that case, letting our overpair go could be acceptable.Gathering this information and folding to the flop 3bet would be cheaper than calling down a big turn bet and an even bigger river bet.So the flop raise not only saves us money, but it also better ensures us that we aren't folding the best hand- which would be a disaster.Note: I feel that the concept of "raising for information" is often terribly misused. I believe raising the turn or river for info is a very bad idea and a waste of chips.Because by the turn, you're close enough to showdown already to make it cheaper just to call down and see his cards.But because the flop is so far away from showdown, gaining the information here can serve our purpose of saving money when we are behind.
Gaining value isn't the only reason to raise.Protecting our vulnerable Jacks in this raised pot would be nice too.Any of 12 overcards falling on the turn will kill our confidence and make it more difficult to play this hand profitably.Conclusion:If we are behind, raising the flop will often cost us less.And if we are ahead, raising the flop either gains more value, or it wins the hand immediately and we scoop the pot.So in my opinion, the decision is clear.--CMAlso, if I do check-raise the flop, I'm curious as to what hands you think he'll show up with that we beat when we get action -
It's not cold calling since we already have a bet invested from the big blind.Assuming everyone is coming along, it costs be another 3 bets to see flop in a 12.5 bet pot.Being out of position certainly hurts my expected value, but since I feel I can outplay most players at 2/4, I like my chances here.Having said that, I can appreciate a cautious fold from someone who is not confident at this table.idk I bet cold calling a 4-bet with ak is prob marginal at best. sick as that sounds, i dump it pre.
Are you suggesting that I lead bluff this horribly coordinated flop into 3 preflop raisers?Bluffing only works if there is a chance everyone will fold.My fold equity on this flop is absolutely zero.Betting out seems to have no logic behind it.i would lead out flop
What is so bad about that turn card?I didn't mind it at all.It didn't complete any draws.And it's unlikely anyone started this hand with a single trey.that is a horrible death turn
This is a serious leak.fix it.I'm not going to let the money go that I feel I shouldn't have been part of in the first place
I don't understand how the preflop action would affect our river action.Are you suggesting that if we had gotten the final cap in preflop, then you would lead this river?But since we only called 3 bets preflop, we should check?If we check the river, how much action are we calling?Do we overcall?Can we cold call?--cmIf we had shown more strength preflop i would like the hand better to value bet. Yes we beat any other 2 pair on river but against this board i just don't think 2 pair is good -
PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is SB with K
, AUTG raises, MP 3-bets, CO caps, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP callsFlop: (17 SB) 4, 7, 3(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsTurn: (10.5 BB) 3(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsRiver: (14.5 BB) K(4 players)Hero checks ....===================That flop can't get much worse for us.We are down to only 4 possibly useful overcards.Even if we hit them, we could still easily be outdrawn.And we might even be drawing dead already to a Flush or Set.We don't close the action on the flop.But getting 19-1 to peel is always tempting.Do you fold this hand on the flop or the turn?When we finally catch the river, is it worth betting into 3?Please advise.--CM -
Blindly following this logic is certainly a spew.Never just skoff at a play and raise it regardless of circumstances.If a loose player in the big blind were to make this funky flop bet into us, then a raise has merit.Because that opponent could have anything.He could easily have a smaller Queen, in which case a raise from us gains value.But the fact that the bet came from the small blind makes a huge difference.His preflop call typically means significantly more than a call from a big blind defense.The small blind's call demands more respect.And it usually greatly narrows his range.Specifically, the chances of Villain having a smaller Queen are very small.So there is much less value in a raise here.I'm always raising this flop b/c of the donkbet. I never really respect it
This comment does not mean the raise is good.Because you are only winning the pot right here and now when Villain was behind you.And if Villain is behind, he is drawing very thin.So we don't want to take down the pot just yet!Let him continue to fire at it.And collect all of his extra chips.Point: When your logical read tells you your opponent is either ahead or drawing thin, be patient.There is little reason to push the action hard.--cmand you should expect to take the pot down a large percentage of the time -
Villain called our preflop raise from the small blind.This represents a good hand.Which generally means he likely has big cards or a pair.We have a margial hand with Top Pair-Weak Kicker.So when Villain funky-bets us on the flop. it's difficult to determine if we are ahead.But it does, however, make it very simple to play.If Villain played with big cards and hit the Queen, his kicker beats ours and we are behind.If this is the case, he is never going to fold his Top Pair.And we want to keep the pot as small as possible to minimize our losses.So passively calling along is the best play.If Villain is playing with a smaller pair, then he is behind and drawing very thin.If this is the case, his flop bet was likely a probe bet to find out if he was ahead.If he gets raised, he will recognize he is behind and toss it.If he doesn't get raised, he may believe his smaller pair is still ahead and will play on.In either case, showing aggression in this hand is a bad idea for us.If we are behind, we lose more money.If we are ahead, we lose our fish.So calling along certainly seems to be the best way to proceed in all circumstances.Note: if the board were draw heavy, or if we put Villain on overcards, then there would certainly be reasons to step up the aggression:- Protect our hand- Gain value from someone chasingBut neither of these conditions exist in this hand.Which means that we can feel safe by playing this hand patiently and passive.
This is an error that a lot of people seem to make.The idea behind it is so that you can save money if you are behind.But there are a couple of flaws to it in this situation:- Does raising the turn to save money on the river really save much money overall?- Are you really folding your Top Pair if the information you get back says you are probably behind?The answer to both of these questions here is probably no.Which means the raise is bad.--CMOn the turn I was trying to find out where I was in the hand -
.... and this is why betting large on the river with made hands can be so successful so often.--cmour hero isn't 'sure' on the turn that villain's bluffing; he's not even 'sure' of it on the river. but the strange river bet gives him more information to make a decision. I bet OP would've folded had villain bet a lot smaller because then it'd be easier to reconcile his actions with his probable range. -
If Villain bluffs wth AQ, he bluffs here with anything.Your AJ can beat anything.A read on this villain doesn't tell us if we are ahead.It tell us if the villain thinks we are ahead.Your read was that this villain thought we were behind.You were wrong.Appreciate the difference here.--cmI see your point. But Villain doesn't have to be strong for me to fold my hand. He has to have a "stronger hand" than hero. My 100% read was that I was beat, not that Villain was strong. He didn't have to be...I had nothing!!!! -
Let's clarify something here.Hero's point is that he made this questionable move because he was 100% confident with his read.But what exactly was Hero's read?CM is 1000% right. The fact that you were right in this situation Shane and you're letting that convince you is being results oriented.
He says he knew he was behind.But what does this mean?It certainly does not imply that he knew Villain had AQ.In fact, Hero has no idea what cards Villain holds here.In actuality, the read was not that he knew he was behind.Hero's point is that his read tells him that Villain is strong.And he is "100% confident" in his read that Villain is strong.And that's why he mucked his hand. But if I am reading the original post correctly, both hero and Villain completely missed the board.They each have only Ace high.Which means that Villain's turn push was intended completely as a bluff.And he was likely sure that hero were ahead when he made the play.Villain's hand and his play represented complete and total weakness.Which means that Hero's read was incorrect.Point:Even in this exact example, we see a case in which a "100% sure" read can be totally wrong.And if that's the case on the hand you choose to post about, recognize that your reads on some of your other hands might not always be right either.And that's ok. None of us are 100% accurate with our reads.But it's just essential that we all recognize this.--cmNow I know odds tell me to call..but I know I have the worst hand!!! I"m 100% sure of that...so I don't like playing the correct odds and calling even tho I know I'm beat so..I fold...and everyone at the table screas "you can't fold that"!!! but I did...and he turned over A Q .... -
Because when the odds are huge, we have to be almost positive that we are behind.And no matter how brilliant we are, the simple fact is that it is not possible for us to be positive.And we must understand this.We all like to be proud of our reads.We love to be able to boast that we know exactly what he has.But we are kidding ourselves.Sure, we might be right.In fact, we probably are right.But we can't be positive.And this mean that folding against huge odds is always wrong.Exception: If we are ever sitting with 7 high and can't even beat a bluff, then we truly do know that we are behind and can fold against any odds. In this case, it's not our read that we have to be positive of. It's the undesputable fact that our cards are simply ahead of nothing.--cmHow can calling be "correct" If I have the worst hand? I -
Without a specific read, this call was certainly wrong and will lead to an overall loss of funds very quickly.Every "big play" we make at the table has a shot at working out a small percentage of the time.But just because we encountered one of those times where we succeeded, it does not validate it as being the right play.Instead, the success just encourages us to continue our wrong ways.And eventually (usually sooner than later), our lesson is learned and we lose everything because of it.The fact that you are boasting about this loose call seems to confirm that you will continue this practice.And that does not bode well.Good luck.
The answer to your question is clearly stated in this exact hand.On a double-paired board, Ace Highs love to go along for the ride.And for whatever reason, on these boards, they seem to believe a huge bet less than a small one.I shove with my big hands here every single time.And get called with junk all day.--CMnice call; in retrospect it seems like you could definitely have put the pieces together. I mean what hand on earth would he just shove the river here? Doesn't make any sense. Any hand w/showdown value, like even a pair of 4s, wouldn't just shove; it may go for a c/c or manage a value bet. -
My thoughts:- Don't make a bet that leaves you or your opponent with a tiny stack. When determining how much to bet, assess the pot size and stack sizes. If the bet you have chosen is close to an all-in for one of you, just put the rest in there immediately. Allowing a few chips to remain just leads to awkwardness on later streets- like it did in your example.Point: always know how many chips are in all stacks.- When deciding to call an all-in on the river, huge pot odds outweigh everything else.Villain may have missed a draw, in which case your Ace high is best.Huge pot odds mean you only have to be right 1 time out of a bunch to make it the right play.And Ace high will win at least that often.So folding can't be an option.The only time you can fold to such a bet is if you can not beat a bluff.Which means you were bluffing yourself the whole way with something like 7 high.But in this case, his all-in bet was not even on the river!Which means that even if your read is correct and you are behind, you likely still have outs!Which means you can never ever ever fold this turn with those odds.Understand this quickly, else you will lose a lot of money.Point: Calling when you are sure you are behind is still right a lot of times.Because your sense of being "sure" is not as reliable as you think.--CM
Donk Bluffing A Draw The Whole Way
in No Limit Texas Hold'em Cash Games
Posted