plo omaha---"he's on fire"

[CaneBrain 95]

Ok so I have been playing a lot more PL Omaha than usual lately. The guys on Empire/party just flat out stink. And lately, variance has been on my side....basically the deck has been slapping me in the face in a good way. Anyways, I was playing at one of the Empire PLO 400 (6 max) tables last night and I was running the table. A couple of donkeys who loved to draw to hands other than the nuts (cardinal sin) kept paying me off. Plus if I pushed with say, top two, they would happily push with their flush or wrap straight draw and they were missing. So I was playing well and running hot. After about 4 hours I had increased my buyin of 400 to about 1550. Two donks had each rebought and were still going strong. A solid player who I know well sat down and quickly went from 400 to about 570. For this hand I am on the button.....solid guy with 570 is in the BB and the two donks are UTG and UTG+1 with 380 and 515 respectively. I am dealt A J 10 6 . UTG raises to 10. He raises almost EVERY hand.....likes to build pots I guess. UTG+1 calls. I call. BB calls. Flop comes 6 6 5 . I flop top trips with the ace kicker and the nut flush draw. BB checks. UTG bets the pot of about 40 dollars. There is now 80 in the pot. UTG+1 folds. UTG almost always continuation bets and he likes to call....so I dont get cute and I raise it to 125 total putting a little over 200 in the pot. BB reraises the pot. UTG folds. I have about 135 invested. There is a lot of money in the pot....about 600 almost if I remember right....BB was able to push most of thier stack in. Now I know BB is solid. Him having 55 or 65 is very likely. He also knows I may be raising with more marginal holdings because the UTG is such a nut....I may have just been raising him with an overpair or a strong draw or something. So what is my play here??? I have two options,....go allin with the BB or fold and lose 135. will post results in a bit.....

[CaneBrain 95]

leaving the office for a while.....will post the results when I get back

[greggr 0]

I think that the decision of calling or not is based on details, and neither of these decisions is a mistake.Personally, i would fold if i were u. Having 2 bad players on my table, i would like to take their money on a 90-10 favorite hand and not "gamble" a 50-50 or 60-40 hand with a good player.The major advantage that he has is that HE bets the money. He has the fold equity with him. He might have a hand like yours, and thinks that he likes to make u fold, but even if you call he is not doomed and maybe he is even the favorite.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

Ok so I have been playing a lot more PL Omaha than usual lately. The guys on Empire/party just flat out stink. And lately, variance has been on my side....basically, Ron Mexico's c0ck has been slapping me in the face in a good way. Anyways, I was playing at one of the Empire PLO 400 (6 max) tables last night and I was running the table. A couple of donkeys who loved to draw to hands other than the nuts (cardinal sin) kept paying me off. Plus if I pushed with say, top two, they would happily push with their flush or wrap straight draw and they were missing. So I was playing well and running hot.  After about 4 hours I had increased my buyin of 400 to about 1550. Two donks had each rebought and were still going strong. A solid player who I know well sat down and quickly went from 400 to about 570.  For this hand I am on the button.....solid guy with 570 is in the BB and the two donks are UTG and UTG+1 with 380 and 515 respectively.  I am dealt A  J  10  6  . UTG raises to 10. He raises almost EVERY hand.....likes to build pots I guess. UTG+1 calls. I call. BB calls.  Flop comes 6  6  5  . I flop top trips with the ace kicker and the nut flush draw. BB checks. UTG bets the pot of about 40 dollars. There is now 80 in the pot. UTG+1 folds. UTG almost always continuation bets and he likes to call....so I dont get cute and I raise it to 125 total putting a little over 200 in the pot. BB reraises the pot. UTG folds. I have about 135 invested. There is a lot of money in the pot....about 600 almost if I remember right....BB was able to push most of thier stack in.  Now I know BB is solid. Him having 55 or 65 is very likely. He also knows I may be raising with more marginal holdings because the UTG is such a nut....I may have just been raising him with an overpair or a strong draw or something.  So what is my play here??? I have two options,....go allin with the BB or fold and lose 135.  will post results in a bit.....

FYPI gotta learn to play Omaha. Except I like to chase from time to time. I need to read a book about it. Any suggestions?

[Timdog1010 0]

Ok so I have been playing a lot more PL Omaha than usual lately. The guys on Empire/party just flat out stink. And lately, variance has been on my side....basically, Ron Mexico's c0ck has been slapping me in the face in a good way. Anyways, I was playing at one of the Empire PLO 400 (6 max) tables last night and I was running the table. A couple of donkeys who loved to draw to hands other than the nuts (cardinal sin) kept paying me off. Plus if I pushed with say, top two, they would happily push with their flush or wrap straight draw and they were missing. So I was playing well and running hot.  After about 4 hours I had increased my buyin of 400 to about 1550. Two donks had each rebought and were still going strong. A solid player who I know well sat down and quickly went from 400 to about 570.  For this hand I am on the button.....solid guy with 570 is in the BB and the two donks are UTG and UTG+1 with 380 and 515 respectively.  I am dealt A  J  10  6  . UTG raises to 10. He raises almost EVERY hand.....likes to build pots I guess. UTG+1 calls. I call. BB calls.  Flop comes 6  6  5  . I flop top trips with the ace kicker and the nut flush draw. BB checks. UTG bets the pot of about 40 dollars. There is now 80 in the pot. UTG+1 folds. UTG almost always continuation bets and he likes to call....so I dont get cute and I raise it to 125 total putting a little over 200 in the pot. BB reraises the pot. UTG folds. I have about 135 invested. There is a lot of money in the pot....about 600 almost if I remember right....BB was able to push most of thier stack in.  Now I know BB is solid. Him having 55 or 65 is very likely. He also knows I may be raising with more marginal holdings because the UTG is such a nut....I may have just been raising him with an overpair or a strong draw or something.  So what is my play here??? I have two options,....go allin with the BB or fold and lose 135.  will post results in a bit.....

FYPI gotta learn to play Omaha. Except I like to chase from time to time. I need to read a book about it. Any suggestions?

Didn't you say you had Supersystem 1 & 2? They'll get you off to a good start...

[adammc 0]

He could just as easily have a worse 6 then A 6.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

Don't have SS1 or 2. I am a holdem boy but the omaho thing sounds promising. Plus, you get 4 cards. It just seems like a lot of thinking and I usually like to be buzzing when I play live. Bad combo. Maybe I'll try.

[benhoug 0]

Plus if I pushed with say, top two, they would happily push with their flush or wrap straight draw and they were missing. So I was playing well and running hot.

Pushing w/ top 2 when you're up against someone w/ a flush draw and a wrap straight draw I'm pretty sure you're a dog. Not a great play

I am dealt A J 10 6 . UTG raises to 10. He raises almost EVERY hand.....likes to build pots I guess. UTG+1 calls. I call. BB calls. Flop comes 6 6 5 . I flop top trips with the ace kicker and the nut flush draw. BB checks. UTG bets the pot of about 40 dollars. There is now 80 in the pot. UTG+1 folds. UTG almost always continuation bets and he likes to call....so I dont get cute and I raise it to 125 total putting a little over 200 in the pot. BB reraises the pot. UTG folds. I have about 135 invested. There is a lot of money in the pot....about 600 almost if I remember right....BB was able to push most of thier stack in. Now I know BB is solid. Him having 55 or 65 is very likely. He also knows I may be raising with more marginal holdings because the UTG is such a nut....I may have just been raising him with an overpair or a strong draw or something. So what is my play here??? I have two options,....go allin with the BB or fold and lose 135. will post results in a bit.....

AJ106 is not a great Omaha hand. In TJ's book he talks about hands w/ "Danglers." Those are hands that have 3 cards that work together and one that doesn't fit at all - e.g. AJ106.I don't like calling raises w/ hands so weak. So you got lucky and caught a decent flop, but when facing any aggression you've got to wonder how good your trips are. In my experience somebody is gonna have a full house. I hate your flop re-raise 'cause like I said there's a very good chance you're behind. You even said yourelf you thought the other player was capable of having 65 or 55, in which case you're drawing to a 10, J or A. You'll get there about 35% of the time, but you're still a dog, so why put extra money in the pot if you think you're beat?Congratulations on your winning streak. I hope you keep it up, but I wouldn't advocate pushing w/ top 2 or calling raises pre-flop w/ dangler hands if you want to keep it up.caveat: I mostly play full ring PLO and don't have tons of experience playing 6-handed. If hand strengths go up that much when you're 6-handed I apologize for criticizing.

[Phil Deiwert 0]

whether he has 65 or 55 here, as long as he doesn't have one of your overcards compromised (by having, say, AA or JJ along with the 65 or 55), you're only about a 60-40 underdog. of course there's also a chance he is betting a strong draw like 78 with the 2nd nut spade draw. but i guess i'm assuming he has either 55 or 65 since you say he's a solid player, and now he's making a play at a pot that, until he made the pot-sized raise, was relatively small and he especially had very little invested in it.... so it seems pretty likely he has 65 or 55. i think it just becomes a question of whether you're getting the right odds to call and whether you are willing to gamble in this spot against this player. if the other 2 are as much of an ATM as you say, i might fold here and look to get my money in against them instead, but the more i think about it the more i think i'd call... since you have results to post, i assume you called/put him all in... i hope it came out well for you.

[Timdog1010 0]

Don't have SS1 or 2. I am a holdem boy but the omaho thing sounds promising. Plus, you get 4 cards. It just seems like a lot of thinking and I usually like to be buzzing when I play live. Bad combo. Maybe I'll try.

I know what you mean. I rarely play Omaha, when I do it's usually at a home game past midnight when everyone's hammered & just goofing around. I find that I can't fold anything pre-flop, though. It seems like every hand has potential pre-flop......BTW do you think the title of the thread is a reference to the old NBA Live arcade game?

[PhishForChips 0]

If he raised the pot and has been doing so everyt ime like you say, he may have any holding and quite possible may have hit the board hard. 5/6 or 6/with Ace kicker. The caveat here for you is that you have some high cards. In omaha, you can easily kill the nuts on the flop with the higher nuts on the turn or river. Thats why its a evil game and why you still have to be cautious when you flop a small full house as you can easily be beat on the turn or river with a higher boat. I say you look at the turn and see what his move is. Looks like you are fairly pot committed at this point so you could hit a card on the turn. OR he may have AA or KK and think you are bluffing the pot. In a situation like this I hjave to at least see the turn card and river. Its likely you will hit a card you need with your holding. Its all about "will my hand improve enough to justify a call or raise?"

[alf13 0]

Plus if I pushed with say, top two, they would happily push with their flush or wrap straight draw and they were missing. So I was playing well and running hot. ..

You are not playing well if you did that.If they have both (flush and wrap straight draw) you are a decided underdog.If they have a flush draw...you are advised to just call a bet or bet half the pot to make it expensive to draw if the flush card doesn't come on the turn.If you are up against 2 other players and it comes bet, call on a connected board...you gotta fold everything except top set....If the board is semi-connected...top two is a crying call against bet, call....HU.....you should be advised to play it cautiously on a semi-connected and flush board.

[alf13 0]

BTW....PLO Cash Games are the only games online (IMO) that you can play weak tight and be profitable.In fact...sometimes after booking a solid winner for the night in PLO...I will go completely weak tight and nutpeddle.

[CaneBrain 95]

Plus if I pushed with say, top two, they would happily push with their flush or wrap straight draw and they were missing. So I was playing well and running hot. ..

You are not playing well if you did that.If they have both (flush and wrap straight draw) you are a decided underdog.If they have a flush draw...you are advised to just call a bet or bet half the pot to make it expensive to draw if the flush card doesn't come on the turn.If you are up against 2 other players and it comes bet, call on a connected board...you gotta fold everything except top set....If the board is semi-connected...top two is a crying call against bet, call....HU.....you should be advised to play it cautiously on a semi-connected and flush board.

I was betting the pot with top two and they were raising like maniac with a single draw....str8 or flush....not usually both...like I said I was running hot and steamrolling the two donkeys. I doubt I was ever getting my money in against them as a "decided" underdog. But i see your point.

[CaneBrain 95]

seems like there is a variety of opinions. In retrospect, I think I should have folded because as has been mentioned....I can target the two idiots instead of tangling with the good player.However, I was running hot and I thought the good player might be making a move based on my play and the play of the UTG donk.So I went all in and he called. Turns out he had QQ65 and had already flopped the boat.Turn was a 4. River....10! So I sucked out and got lucky. Big deal wanna fight about it?? looking back I made a poor play....I get reckless when I am running hot sometimes for sure. Gotta shore that up. Still booked a 2400 dollar profit last night so it could be a lot worse.

[CaneBrain 95]

Don't have SS1 or 2. I am a holdem boy but the omaho thing sounds promising. Plus, you get 4 cards. It just seems like a lot of thinking and I usually like to be buzzing when I play live. Bad combo. Maybe I'll try.

You cant find much live Omaha anyways. I like TJ's book Championship Omaha. Good read. Super system is helpful too.TJ's book advocates simple theories that most people dont follow (like dont draw to anything but the nuts!)I have made bank playing PLO on Empire....and I think from this post it is obvious that I still have a lot of work to do on my PLO game. FWIW.

[benhoug 0]

TJ's book advocates simple theories that most people dont follow (like dont draw to anything but the nuts!)

Avoid DANGLERS.Only draw to the nuts.And oh yeah, avoid DANGLERS.

[CaneBrain 95]

TJ's book advocates simple theories that most people dont follow (like dont draw to anything but the nuts!)

Avoid DANGLERS.Only draw to the nuts.And oh yeah, avoid DANGLERS.

ok well I didnt say I was perfect either.You have to understand that the UTG in the above post raised preflop 75% of the time. Aj106 double suited on the button seemed like a perfectly good hand to call 10 dollars with under those circumstances.but yes danglers are bad. it was 6 max too. danglers are still bad.

[agsa6079 0]

If you understood this game, you wouldn't have been involved in that pot. Plus, the fact that you think because you had a winning night and won the hand, your play was justified exudes yet more reason why you should reconsider playing poker at all.

[benhoug 0]

TJ's book advocates simple theories that most people dont follow (like dont draw to anything but the nuts!)

Avoid DANGLERS.Only draw to the nuts.And oh yeah, avoid DANGLERS.

Aj106 double suited on the button seemed like a perfectly good hand to call 10 dollars with under those circumstances.

Don't think you mentioned they were double suited. That changes things a bit. At least your 6 is working for you as a flush draw.

[CaneBrain 95]

Plus if I pushed with say, top two, they would happily push with their flush or wrap straight draw and they were missing. So I was playing well and running hot.

Pushing w/ top 2 when you're up against someone w/ a flush draw and a wrap straight draw I'm pretty sure you're a dog. Not a great play

I am dealt A J 10 6 . UTG raises to 10. He raises almost EVERY hand.....likes to build pots I guess. UTG+1 calls. I call. BB calls. Flop comes 6 6 5 . I flop top trips with the ace kicker and the nut flush draw. BB checks. UTG bets the pot of about 40 dollars. There is now 80 in the pot. UTG+1 folds. UTG almost always continuation bets and he likes to call....so I dont get cute and I raise it to 125 total putting a little over 200 in the pot. BB reraises the pot. UTG folds. I have about 135 invested. There is a lot of money in the pot....about 600 almost if I remember right....BB was able to push most of thier stack in. Now I know BB is solid. Him having 55 or 65 is very likely. He also knows I may be raising with more marginal holdings because the UTG is such a nut....I may have just been raising him with an overpair or a strong draw or something. So what is my play here??? I have two options,....go allin with the BB or fold and lose 135. will post results in a bit.....

AJ106 is not a great Omaha hand. In TJ's book he talks about hands w/ "Danglers." Those are hands that have 3 cards that work together and one that doesn't fit at all - e.g. AJ106.I don't like calling raises w/ hands so weak. So you got lucky and caught a decent flop, but when facing any aggression you've got to wonder how good your trips are. In my experience somebody is gonna have a full house. I hate your flop re-raise 'cause like I said there's a very good chance you're behind. You even said yourelf you thought the other player was capable of having 65 or 55, in which case you're drawing to a 10, J or A. You'll get there about 35% of the time, but you're still a dog, so why put extra money in the pot if you think you're beat?Congratulations on your winning streak. I hope you keep it up, but I wouldn't advocate pushing w/ top 2 or calling raises pre-flop w/ dangler hands if you want to keep it up.caveat: I mostly play full ring PLO and don't have tons of experience playing 6-handed. If hand strengths go up that much when you're 6-handed I apologize for criticizing.

I appreciate the advice. but you have some of the facts wrong in this post. On the flop, the UTG maniac bets out....I raise him because he is full of crap all the time and then the BB, who is solid, comes over the top of my reraise and I know from that the BB probably has 65 or 55.I reraised the UTG.....thats why I put in extra money on the flop. Still your stuff on danglers is duly noted. does TJ say why they should be avoided??? I cant remember the whole book....

[CaneBrain 95]

If you understood this game, you wouldn't have been involved in that pot. Plus, the fact that you think because you had a winning night and won the hand, your play was justified exudes yet more reason why you should reconsider playing poker at all.

You are a jerk. You criticized without offering any reasoning behind your analysis. I dont mind criticism but yours is completely unhelpful, unwarranted, and betrays a feeble mind.I would love to hear why you would not call a small raise on the button with AJ106 double suited. I would further like to hear why I should quit poker.....actually on second thought your stupidity would probably only kill my brain cells and I will need those."exudes yet more reason"----this phrase suggests to me that you either should reconsider writing ever again or that English is a 2nd language for you.

[benhoug 0]

the UTG maniac bets out....I raise him because he is full of crap all the time

Sorry I got some of the facts wrong...The above highlights probably my biggest leak. Not ever giving somebody credit for a hand. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Trust me, I know it's hard, but sometimes you've got to give credit, even when it's to a total donkey who has been making moves w/ shit all day.

[CaneBrain 95]

the UTG maniac bets out....I raise him because he is full of crap all the time

Sorry I got some of the facts wrong...The above highlights probably my biggest leak. Not ever giving somebody credit for a hand. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Trust me, I know it's hard, but sometimes you've got to give credit, even when it's to a total donkey who has been making moves w/ censored all day.

love that clock line. yeah but I cant fold top trips with an ace kicker on the flop can I? so I just call? sounds reasonable.

[KoRnholio 2]

Still your stuff on danglers is duly noted. does TJ say why they should be avoided??? I cant remember the whole book....

Basically: a hand with all 4 cards working together (ie QJ98, AKJT) is much stronger than a hand like AKJ6, since in the latter case, you're basically just playing with 3 cards. That "dangler" will very rarely help your hand in any meaningful way. Even if the dangler is suited, a low, non-straight connecting card is still a waste to have.