Awkward River

[antistuff 0]

opponents are 30-40 loose, raise too much preflop, and are very passive post flop.im thinking of raising the river. i don't like it becouse i will always have to call a three bet. Full Tilt PokerLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $2/$48 playersConverterPre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with 4 5 UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.Flop: Q 8 J (10.5SB, 5 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.Turn: 5 (7.25BB, 4 players)UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.River: 4 (11.25BB, 4 players)UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.Results:Final pot: 14.25BB

[Dirtydutch 8]

Flop and turn are good, but I'm raising the shit out of a 4, 5 or spade on the river.Can you explain why you called pre-flop? It seems like a mistake to me, and I would never cold-call with it, but I assume you have some reason I fail to understand.

[antistuff 0]

Flop and turn are good, but I'm raising the shit out of a 4, 5 or spade on the river.Can you explain why you called pre-flop? It seems like a mistake to me, and I would never cold-call with it, but I assume you have some reason I fail to understand.

a raise and two calls from loose players who are passive post flop seems like a good spot for suited connectors to me.

[Viper_13 0]

i fold pre. is 5-1 at best and the button +ev?his line has me baffled. 55? only because of the confusion i would call the river, but i do think the play is b/f.

[antistuff 0]

when i say they are passive post flop i mean they are PASSIVE. i can end up drawing to all sorts of things for cheap or free. im actually suprised you guys think this is a fold.

[Zach6668 513]

I call preflop. Position is so awesome against passive players.I kinda want to consider raising the flop. Any thoughts on that?River is close.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I call preflop. Position is so awesome against passive players.I kinda want to consider raising the flop. Any thoughts on that?River is close.

If they play passive, then definitely going for the free card is the way to go. I think much of the time, the free card play is overrated, as many people these days call and then donk out on the turn when a blank hits. Against passive players, I think that's the play.Why, if you raise, and you get three bet on the river would you call? What hands do you think you can beat, when a passive player 3 bets the river? you think he'd three bet over pair on the river? Doesn't seem very passive to me.

[HollywoodAFD 0]

I call preflop. Position is so awesome against passive players.I kinda want to consider raising the flop. Any thoughts on that?River is close.

Same here... Call pre

[RISEorFall 0]

this would be the very very bottom end of my calling range, and id probably fold, except maybe with super passive players. i dont like raising the flop. you want more customers for your draw, and if theyre as passive as you say you might get a free card anyway. i guess id call the river out of confusion, and kick myself when he shows AQ. the second guy makes me want to raise tho, because we can make up the extra bet when we're behind when we pick up extra bets from the straggler when we're ahead.

[shpaget 0]

Preflop MIGHT be a bit loose, but I do the same....if it is a "mistake" then likely one more caller makes it correct.Is there an argument to raise the flop? Will UTG+1 call two bets as quickly as he calls one? Can you pay a small bet here to save a big bet on the turn? I think I call the flop, but I wonder if raising is better.UTG+1 being passive and then betting the turn and river bugs me, but I'm still inclined to raise the river...will he play AQ, KQ this way?Why did he wake up on the turn? Slowplaying a flopped set? Limped early with Q5? 55?Will he bet the come?

[CobaltBlue 662]

IPITS. That river is an odd spot. We should have CO beat. What range do you pot UTG+1 on?

[TheCinciKid 0]

I think I call this river mostly out of confusion. Our hand seems kinda vulnerable to me and UTG+1's play feels kinda like 55, though that seems unlikely since he'd have to have the case fives, it seems like the way people tend to play online these days. I also definitely agree with an above poster (don't remember who) that if we do raise this river, we have almost have to fold to a three-bet. Passive players don't three-bet this river with hands we can beat. In fact, most passive players would call our raise with hands that beat us, like QJ or Q8 and re-raise with hands that have us crushed, like 9T, 88, 55, etc.

[shpaget 0]

I'm still wondering if "passive" is a bit of an inaccurate read for this particular player.What passive player checks this particular flop, then calls a bet, and then lead bets the turn on a card that did nothing to improve any reasonable hand?I'm also not sure a supremely passive player would 3 bet the river with 55...in fact, any set....a terribly passive player fears the flopped straight.The river is never a fold, IMO, if for no other reason but information, but I'm trying to figure out if there's long term value in raising. I think there is.I've had "passive" players surprise me and bet AQ, KQ, QT, AA, KK...AK on this type of board.Will he raise with 55 pf...88? JT? AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AQ, KQs - is that a reasonable selection for his preflop raise, in conjunction with his post flop play? If it is, a river raise is appropriate, I think.

[GCP 0]

Call pre if you're stuck, fold if you're ahead. Really simple.