Can I Fold...

[Stiles2004 0]

PokerStars Game #20805450212: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/09/29 23:25:43 ETTable 'Orthosie' 6-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: jro20003 ($59 in chips) Seat 3: Stiles2004 ($54.75 in chips) Seat 4: gaffemis ($128.70 in chips) Seat 5: arobinson11 ($92.65 in chips) Seat 6: juan ($20 in chips) arobinson11: posts small blind $0.50juan: posts big blind $1The Berglar: sits out *** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Stiles2004 [8s 7c 5c 7s]jro20003: calls $1Stiles2004: calls $1gaffemis: calls $1arobinson11: calls $0.50juan: checks *** FLOP *** [4d Td 7h]arobinson11: bets $4juan: folds jro20003: folds Stiles2004: raises $8 to $12gaffemis: folds arobinson11: calls $8*** TURN *** [4d Td 7h] [4h]arobinson11: checks Stiles2004: checks *** RIVER *** [4d Td 7h 4h] [4s]arobinson11: bets $27Stiles2004: raises $14.75 to $41.75 and is all-inarobinson11: calls $14.75*** SHOW DOWN ***Stiles2004: shows [8s 7c 5c 7s] (a full house, Sevens full of Fours)arobinson11: shows [Qd 3d Ts 4c] (four of a kind, Fours)arobinson11 collected $110.50 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $112.50 | Rake $2 Board [4d Td 7h 4h 4s]Seat 1: jro20003 folded on the FlopSeat 3: Stiles2004 showed [8s 7c 5c 7s] and lost with a full house, Sevens full of FoursSeat 4: gaffemis (button) folded on the FlopSeat 5: arobinson11 (small blind) showed [Qd 3d Ts 4c] and won ($110.50) with four of a kind, FoursSeat 6: juan (big blind) folded on the Flop

[antistuff 0]

do not check that turn. in fact when its heads up and you have the initiative and the board pairs on the turn almost always bet. as played, just call the river. if you thought he had aces or kings you could make a case for raising but you have no reason to think that he has that.

[SGFULTON83 0]

If you are going to play a marginal holding then at least raise with it to represent something strong. Bet flop and turn, never check that turn because you want to build a pot with a full house. The river firing of 27 indicates that either a villian has 10's full, a 4 or AA. We can only beat one of those hands so a fold although its tough to do is possible. Thats why I bet big on that turn so we probably would have gotten it all in there and had the best hand most of the time and just got unlucky on the river. Also folding pre-flop is probably the 100% best play for this hand IMO.

[bdc30 0]

Also folding pre-flop is probably the 100% best play for this hand IMO.

Folding this preflop is terrible. Raise pot.Good raise on the flop.Why the hell are you checking the turn?Meh, I have a tough time folding river.Don't show results.Convert your hands.Have a nice day.

[SGFULTON83 0]

If you are going to play a marginal holding then at least raise with it to represent something strong. Bet flop and turn, never check that turn because you want to build a pot with a full house. The river firing of 27 indicates that either a villian has 10's full, a 4 or AA. We can only beat one of those hands so a fold although its tough to do is possible. Thats why I bet big on that turn so we probably would have gotten it all in there and had the best hand most of the time and just got unlucky on the river. Also folding pre-flop is probably the 100% best play for this hand IMO.

Like I said, the reason I said folding pre was the optimal play is if you don't want to get involved in tough decisions with these types of hands then you shouldn't be playing them in the first place. Right, bdc30?

[bdc30 0]

true -- and a good point. You have to trust your postflop play and instincts to be raising these types of hands preflop. You have to be a good enough player not to stack off with a flopped 7 high flush or bottom set. If you don't think you have the instincts or experience yet, you'll probably be a MUCH more profitable player at 50plo than you will at 100.

[Stiles2004 0]

Checked turn because I figured I was crushing... too many NLHE I guess, trying to look like I was bluffingThanks for the insights gents

[SGFULTON83 0]

Edit- Don't take my advice, I don't know shit about poker.

[dingas 0]

Checked turn because I figured I was crushing... too many NLHE I guess, trying to look like I was bluffingThanks for the insights gents

Actually checking the turn has some merits.. it's pretty hard to imagine what he will pay you off with if you bet (maybe some random drawy hand containing a 4).. but if you check he might pay off a river bet if he hits a flush draw or something.. The problem with this logic is what are you going to do when you raised the flop on a draw? Probably when the board pairs, you will win the pot with a bet unless your opponent has a full house - but if you check when you actually do have a full house, people might pick up on this betting pattern and not believe your bluffs anymore. So it probably makes sense to check behind some of the time just to randomize your play.. or to exploit the tendencies of a specific opponent, let's say - but the default play should definitely be a bet...

[Dratj 0]

don't slowplay. as played, you have to pay it off.

[Drumstick88 0]

the villain was in the sb so he could have any starting range. if he flopped some sort of wrap draw, wouldnt you want to check the turn and let him get a free card? being oop, he will have to guess if we made a boat on the turn, or are giving up a bluff. i think the only river cards we are afraid of are 2 remaining 4s or 3 of the remaining 10s. if we fear villain having 10-4, 10-7, or a random 4, then his outs are actually decreased. Doesnt possibility of a non-scare card hitting the river plus the chance that the next card fills so many draws which still lose to 7s full makes a good argument for checking the turn?

[Dratj 0]

the villain was in the sb so he could have any starting range. if he flopped some sort of wrap draw, wouldnt you want to check the turn and let him get a free card? being oop, he will have to guess if we made a boat on the turn, or are giving up a bluff. i think the only river cards we are afraid of are 2 remaining 4s or 3 of the remaining 10s. if we fear villain having 10-4, 10-7, or a random 4, then his outs are actually decreased. Doesnt possibility of a non-scare card hitting the river plus the chance that the next card fills so many draws which still lose to 7s full makes a good argument for checking the turn?

Even if villian makes a flush or straight on the river, you aren't getting paid off if he's any good.

[ship 0]

PokerStars Game #20805450212: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/09/29 23:25:43 ETTable 'Orthosie' 6-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: jro20003 ($59 in chips) Seat 3: Stiles2004 ($54.75 in chips) Seat 4: gaffemis ($128.70 in chips) Seat 5: arobinson11 ($92.65 in chips) Seat 6: juan ($20 in chips) arobinson11: posts small blind $0.50juan: posts big blind $1The Berglar: sits out *** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Stiles2004 [8s 7c 5c 7s]jro20003: calls $1Stiles2004: calls $1gaffemis: calls $1arobinson11: calls $0.50juan: checks *** FLOP *** [4d Td 7h]arobinson11: bets $4juan: folds jro20003: folds Stiles2004: raises $8 to $12gaffemis: folds arobinson11: calls $8*** TURN *** [4d Td 7h] [4h]arobinson11: checks Stiles2004: checks *** RIVER *** [4d Td 7h 4h] [4s]arobinson11: bets $27Stiles2004: raises $14.75 to $41.75 and is all-inarobinson11: calls $14.75*** SHOW DOWN ***Stiles2004: shows [8s 7c 5c 7s] (a full house, Sevens full of Fours)arobinson11: shows [Qd 3d Ts 4c] (four of a kind, Fours)arobinson11 collected $110.50 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $112.50 | Rake $2 Board [4d Td 7h 4h 4s]Seat 1: jro20003 folded on the FlopSeat 3: Stiles2004 showed [8s 7c 5c 7s] and lost with a full house, Sevens full of FoursSeat 4: gaffemis (button) folded on the FlopSeat 5: arobinson11 (small blind) showed [Qd 3d Ts 4c] and won ($110.50) with four of a kind, FoursSeat 6: juan (big blind) folded on the Flop

fold?bet the turn AINEC

[ship 0]

If you are going to play a marginal holding then at least raise with it to represent something strong. Bet flop and turn, never check that turn because you want to build a pot with a full house. The river firing of 27 indicates that either a villian has 10's full, a 4 or AA. We can only beat one of those hands so a fold although its tough to do is possible. Thats why I bet big on that turn so we probably would have gotten it all in there and had the best hand most of the time and just got unlucky on the river. Also folding pre-flop is probably the 100% best play for this hand IMO.

nit

[SGFULTON83 0]

nit

Read my other 2 posts in this thread, and yes I'm such a nit.

[SGFULTON83 0]

I think the main point here is that you shouldn't have ended up in that spot in the first place. Don't play junk hands oop.

Folding this preflop is terrible. Raise pot.Good raise on the flop.Why the hell are you checking the turn?Meh, I have a tough time folding river.Don't show results.Convert your hands.Have a nice day.

OK, you gave two totally different pieces of advice to two similar hands. I understand that OP's hand is slightly better than mine but is 8s 7c 5c 7s really so much stronger than 9s 8c 2s 9c that we should be raising one and folding the other Pre-Flop(this is where I'm confused, only Pre)? This is a serious question and would like to know reasoning behind it so I can get better at PLO, Thanks bdc30.

[Pdiddydog 0]

Folding that hand preflop is insane regardless of your reasoning. If your going to stick to QJT9 double suited and AAKK double suited prepare to be crushed in this game by any experienced player, your just going to have to get more comfortable playing these types of hands. You should have raised before the flop and bet the turn, also you shouldn't have re-raised on the river its really spewey.

[ship 0]

raise pf, jam flop, ship turn, profit

[antistuff 0]

OK, you gave two totally different pieces of advice to two similar hands. I understand that OP's hand is slightly better than mine but is 8s 7c 5c 7s really so much stronger than 9s 8c 2s 9c that we should be raising one and folding the other Pre-Flop(this is where I'm confused, only Pre)? This is a serious question and would like to know reasoning behind it so I can get better at PLO, Thanks bdc30.

8775ds has infinitely more post flop playability than 9982ds.

[ship 0]

8775ds has infinitely more post flop playability than 9982ds.

this