Top Pair, Mediocre Kicker

[KevinFKHS 0]

What's my line here on the river, have no reads at all since it's like the 2nd or 3rd hand after I sat down...Both players are about 10$ deepDealt to KevinFKHS :aheessccoo: folds yhunykx: raises $0.20 to $0.30KevinFKHS: calls $0.30jos1983: folds dasims34 joins the table at seat #2 Schneehenry: folds *** FLOP *** :adyhunykx: checks KevinFKHS: bets $0.60yhunykx: calls $0.60*** TURN *** :4syhunykx: checks KevinFKHS: bets $0.95yhunykx: calls $0.95*** RIVER *** :kdyhunykx: bets $0.40KevinFKHS?

[mtdesmoines 3]

What's my line here on the river, have no reads at all since it's like the 2nd or 3rd hand after I sat down...Both players are about 10$ deep *** RIVER *** :D :kdyhunykx: bets $0.40KevinFKHS?

You were beat before the river, but call.

[trystero 0]

Generally it's a bad idea to raise the river with top pair no kicker

[Zach6668 513]

If you raise here, you're turning your hand into a bluff.We have showdown value, just call.

[dms26 3]

The only reason to raise the river would be to get better hands to fold and worse hands to call. Raising the river wouldn't accomplish either of those very often. Sure he could have A8 or something occasionally, but this usually something like a scared AQ,AJ that doesn't want to check. I don't think raising will get villain to fold though if they are paying any attention to what's going on. The K doesn't logically help you, so why would you be raising now?

[Acid_Knight 2]

The only reason to raise the river would be to get better hands to fold and worse hands to call.

I'll bet that comes straight from a book somewhere.

[NoBBiR 0]

You were beat before the river, but call.

I dunno about that, but I'm still calling for sure.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Easy call. Raising would be pretty dumb.

[Zach6668 513]

Easy call. Raising would be pretty dumb.

Drinking tonight, are we?

[Influcted 0]

Just call, at those tables it's actually possible to win with such a kicker as they do raise with the likes of A5 suited

[simo_8ball 0]

Check behind on the turn.

[dms26 3]

I'll bet that comes straight from a book somewhere.

Actually I think I've heard it repeated so many times in here it's just burned into my brain

[CoranMoran 0]

You were beat before the river, but call.

Generally it's a bad idea to raise the river with top pair no kicker

If you raise here, you're turning your hand into a bluff.We have showdown value, just call.

The only reason to raise the river would be to get better hands to fold and worse hands to call. Raising the river wouldn't accomplish either of those very often.

==============I am very confused here.Someone help me out.My thoughts:Villain raised preflop.So we can put him on a decent hand.Some sort of pair, big cards, suited connectors.Despite raising preflop, Villain shows us that he does not like the Ace on the board.He passive check-calls both the flop and the turn.Relative to the board, the river King is a complete blank.Not a single draw is completed with this card.No logical 2-pair hands are even made.The single only logical hand that may have helped this preflop-raiser would be precisely KK.So our position on the river is very likely the be exact same it was on the turn.Villain's passiveness on the flop and turn should tell us that a river value-bet will be warranted.Because we are probably ahead.But then something weird happens.Villain wakes up and bets the river.But he only bets a TINY amount (1/7 of the pot).What can this mean?His line:CheckCheckTINY donk-bet on a blank river.Translation:Villain's check-calls seem to be done in an effort to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.But he knows that the river is often where we are likely to place our largest bet.So Villain makes a tiny block-bet to thow us off in hopes that we will just call and make the river a whole lot cheaper than it would have been.Point: In no way does Villain's line represent strength.So we must decide how to react to this funky river bet.My answer:I consider Villain's tiny bet to mean nothing more than a check.And I put the same amount of chips into the pot as I would have if he had checked.Thus, if I had originally deemed the river to be worth of a value bet of $1.50, then I would make sure that amount was bet.- I would raise $1.10If for some reason I was planning on checking behind on the river to begin with, then I would just call here.But my point is that I would not allow his tiny river bet to affect my decision in any way.

You were beat before the river, but call.

Where in the world does this come from?Was it the flop check that scared you?Maybe the turn check?Or was it the itsy bitsy teeny tiny river bet that showed such great strength?If Villain were confident with his hand, he would be betting.If he were slyly slowplaying, should not be playing the hand anything like this.We would have expected him to check raise somewhere.

Generally it's a bad idea to raise the river with top pair no kicker

Yes!But I don't consider this to be a raise at all.I view Villain's tiny bet to be a check.Realistically, if we were to become scared any time an opponent put in a surprise baby-bet, we would be giving that player total control of the hand and would be losing a TON of value on our winning hands.

(Zach6668 @ Thursday, November 1st, 2007, 12:54 PM) If you raise here, you're turning your hand into a bluff.We have showdown value, just call.

Value-bet, baby.A "raise" here certainly does not have to be a bluff.It would represent the same thing that a bet would if it had been checked to us.

The only reason to raise the river would be to get better hands to fold and worse hands to call. Raising the river wouldn't accomplish either of those very often.

I completely disagree.If Villain had made a standard river bet, then this statement makes perfect sense to me.But we can not view this baby-bet as the same thing.Doing so handicaps our play tremendously.Just my thoughts...--CM

[Zach6668 513]

Welcome to the NL forum Cory.mtdesmoines is a nit, and he posts weird. He will usually pick a hand out of a hand and tell you "he has AA, you're beat", or something dumb like that. He does give some good advice though.I don't know how much your experiences are with NL, but river play is soooo vastly different from LHE. I'm hardly an expert on either, but I think it would take a vastly stronger hand in NL to raise this here. For one, it only has value if he calls with a worse hand, or folds a better hand. There are a lot of better hands that make his cheap showdown line, AJ, AQ, most notably. He's giving us a chance to get to showdown for very cheap. I just don't see the value in raising here. If he was playing some sort of wa/wb line, he's folding all the hands we beat.

[NoBBiR 0]

MT just runs bad and always fears he's behind :PHe's almost like me, except I always feel like I'm still ahead even after the guy turns over the nuts.

[dms26 3]

I completely disagree.If Villain had made a standard river bet, then this statement makes perfect sense to me.But we can not view this baby-bet as the same thing.Doing so handicaps our play tremendously.Just my thoughts...--CM

I agree the river bet here is weak, but what kind of hand are you putting him on? I don't think his range is that favorable for us to raise here. If he has AQ,AJ he calls the raise and we lose (It would be a very strange line and isn't that likely but he will show up with this hand occasionally.)He has some type of decent pocket pair. How often can he really call a raise here? At lower stakes definately more than they should, I will admit that.Missed draw, he's definately folding and we gain nothing.Something like A5-A8. This is the only real value I see. I guess it just depends on how often you think villain shows up with something in this range and calls our raise. I just don't think it happens that often.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Sometimes, it doesn't matter how weak his line is on the river.Like, if I had a hand without showdown value here, I'd raise him becuase I think there's a decent chance that he might fold.With our hand, if we raise, he calls with hands that beat us and folds those that don't. There's just no value in a raise here. It's pretty straight forward.

[navybuttons 15]

didn't read responses.fold preflop. i might check behind the turn. no value in raising river.edit: I expect to see AJ or K9 here a lot.

[mtdesmoines 3]

1 Welcome to the NL forum Cory.2 mtdesmoines is a nit, and he posts weird. He will usually pick a hand out of a hand and tell you "he has AA, you're beat", or something dumb like that. He does give some good advice though.3 I don't know how much your experiences are with NL, but river play is soooo vastly different from LHE. I'm hardly an expert on either, but I think it would take a vastly stronger hand in NL to raise this here. For one, it only has value if he calls with a worse hand, or folds a better hand. There are a lot of better hands that make his cheap showdown line, AJ, AQ, most notably. He's giving us a chance to get to showdown for very cheap. I just don't see the value in raising here. If he was playing some sort of wa/wb line, he's folding all the hands we beat.

1 Yeah.2 meh ... hi, Zach. 3 Yeah.

MT just runs bad and always fears he's behind He's almost like me, except I always feel like I'm still ahead even after the guy turns over the nuts.

Mostly true. I might do a Naismith retirement until 2008 if I can't book a couple nice wins soon.Couple examples from this weekend of how I cannot get any traction lately: Me: AA v Villain: KJ -- I get him to shove a deepstack buyin at me on a K 4 2 rainbow flop. Turn: KMe: KK v idiotdonk Q8sooted. This is AIPF. I flop a set, he runner-runners a flush.Me: 44 v villain K8o: flop 4KK ... I get him to shove ... running tens.Me: AA v villain: KK ... AIPF ... flop is K89, I don't improveMe: AA v. villain AK ... flop is KT3 .. he shoves, I call running straight to chop. And it goes on and on and on. I can't win. I did make a nice call with a K no kicker for a $450 pot, though. It's marginal hands like that that are sustaining me.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Couple examples from this weekend of how I cannot get any traction lately: Me: AA v Villain: KJ -- I get him to shove a deepstack buyin at me on a K 4 2 rainbow flop. Turn: KMe: KK v idiotdonk Q8sooted. This is AIPF. I flop a set, he runner-runners a flush.Me: 44 v villain K8o: flop 4KK ... I get him to shove ... running tens.Me: AA v villain: KK ... AIPF ... flop is K89, I don't improveMe: AA v. villain AK ... flop is KT3 .. he shoves, I call running straight to chop. And it goes on and on and on. I can't win.

You complain about too many hands.

[mtdesmoines 3]

You complain about too many hands.

Sorry. Life tilt.

[CoranMoran 0]

Welcome to the NL forum Cory.

There was a link from the Limit section

For one, it only has value if he calls with a worse hand, or folds a better hand.

With our hand, if we raise, he calls with hands that beat us and folds those that don't. There's just no value in a raise here. It's pretty straight forward.

Something like A5-A8. This is the only real value I see. I guess it just depends on how often you think villain shows up with something in this range and calls our raise. I just don't think it happens that often.

My main point was not addressed in any of these responses.If we plan on value-betting a passive river, then I insist we should bet ("raise") this river after Villain baby-donk-bets.So the question is: Do you plan on betting this river if checked to??If you don't, then I understand only calling the river.But if you would have bet, then I state that calling the baby river bet is a passive mistake.

I don't know how much your experiences are with NL, but river play is soooo vastly different from LHE.

I only call here in limit.I raise in no-limit.

I agree the river bet here is weak, but what kind of hand are you putting him on?

TT, JJ, QQ all likely play this hand this way.

I don't think his range is that favorable for us to raise here.

We have to incorporate Villain's play in this hand into his perceived range.He has not played like he has a hand that is ahead.He has definitely played the hand like some people play good-but-not-great hands.So in my opinion, a large portion of his range is hands that are behind yet will call our river bet.And a smaller portion of his range is hands that are ahead of us.Note: I expect no better hands to fold to my river action.--cm

[Zach6668 513]

eh, I don't get it then.

[Acid_Knight 2]

This had seems to be pretty simple. Any raise on the river would be very thin. There are few hands that he can call a raise with here, but there are hands that he has which he feels are weak and might bet in this way that still beat us.This is just a hand to get to showdown with. It's not anymore complicated than that.

[CoranMoran 0]

eh, I don't get it then.

My last try...My question:

Do you bet this river if it is checked to you?

No one has yet answered this question.My point:

But my point is that I would not allow his tiny river bet to affect my decision in any way.

--cm