Another Ak River Value Spot

[cwik 0]

Villain seems solid, I guess TAG but a bit on the loose/passive side (30/15/2.00).No Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $1/$26 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $197.70UTG+1: $75Hero: $254.85Button: $564.35SB: $194.84BB: $200Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with :D 2 folds, Hero raises to $6, Button calls, 2 folds.Flop: ($15, 2 players)Hero bets $10, Button calls.Turn: ($35, 2 players)Hero bets $23, Button calls.River: ($81, 2 players)Hero...

[Temporary Nuts 1]

I c-c for value, not because i'm a puss, but because it 1) looks weak, 2) gets more value out of all the missed draws. Only hands that are paying off your bet are K-10 / K-Q

[Kasner 0]

bet a 1/3-2/3 of the pot to see where i am on the river? any reraises would imply J?

[Acid_Knight 2]

Bet bigger on flopBet bigger on turnCheck/call river for reasons Temp Nuts mentioned. The villain really needs to have KQ here to pay us off, but he will bluff with other holdings.

[mln_falcon 0]

Bet bigger on flopBet bigger on turnCheck/call river for reasons Temp Nuts mentioned. The villain really needs to have KQ here to pay us off, but he will bluff with other holdings.

You always seem to say bet bigger on the flop, why is that? What's wrong with betting 2/3 pot as a standard bet on the flop as either a bet for value or a c-bet?

[Dictius 0]

I think if we check a weaker king will check behind and we get no value. A Jack will bet and we lose when we call. Sometimes busted draws and total air will bet and we win when we call.If we bet I assume KQ/KT will call and any jack will raise. Is it a reasonable assumption that the villain will not raise the river with air?So in order for a check to be more profitable than a bet we need the number of times he bets a busted draw to be greater than the number of times he has a jack or KQ/KT.If he is passive then I don't think we can count on him suddenly getting aggressive enough times when his draw misses to make a c/c more profitable then b/f.It seems pretty close though, I'm happy with either c/c or b/f.

[Dictius 0]

Bet bigger on flopBet bigger on turn

The flop bet should be whatever the standard c-bet amount is, if that's 2/3 the pot then that's fine.A bigger bet on the turn is needed though.

[mln_falcon 0]

This is one of the things I've been thinking about a lot lately. The river is annoying because, any action you have telegraphs your hand. If you have a missed draw or monster you have to bet. If you have what you have, your hand is nothing more than a bluff catcher and you have to check call. So if your playing against good opponents you should bet, becasue it looks like a bluff with a missed flush draw. Against idiots who don't think about what you can have, check call. But the river play is very opponent dependant.

[mikeysong 0]

This is one of the things I've been thinking about a lot lately. The river is annoying because, any action you have telegraphs your hand. If you have a missed draw or monster you have to bet. If you have what you have, your hand is nothing more than a bluff catcher and you have to check call. So if your playing against good opponents you should bet, becasue it looks like a bluff with a missed flush draw. Against idiots who don't think about what you can have, check call. But the river play is very opponent dependant.

wronggood opponents will raise the river and no one wants bet/call all in w/tptk on this river.check/call is a really good play here. Your possible hand range is wide enough on this board to induce a bluff.*edit*2nd bolded part is actually not correct either. If idiots don't think about what you have, then shouldn't you bet? I assume when you say idiots, you mean those loose passive guys who call down with any pair. passive being the key word here means they bluff less and call down more. so bet for value as they will call with a wider range.

[cwik 0]

went check/check.villain had KQ

[mln_falcon 0]

wronggood opponents will raise the river and no one wants bet/call all in w/tptk on this river.check/call is a really good play here. Your possible hand range is wide enough on this board to induce a bluff.*edit*2nd bolded part is actually not correct either. If idiots don't think about what you have, then shouldn't you bet? I assume when you say idiots, you mean those loose passive guys who call down with any pair. passive being the key word here means they bluff less and call down more. so bet for value as they will call with a wider range.

You make sense, and I don't know how to make my point. In regards to weak players, yeah against stations you always value bet, I more meant you should be more willing to check to the predictable players who always bet the river when they missed their draw, there is a lot of them. This hand is complicated because the second pair repeated. It's just a stupid spot, because there are very few hands that hero can hold that bet the turn then check the river. The more I think about the more I like a check call, but I just don't know how often a good villian is bluffing when we check. I'm talking myself into check calling here, I think I'm overthinking myself. I think if your playing this opponent regularly its worth it to bet here so you become harder to read on the river, but against generic opponent, check call is probably correct.Edit: after looking at stats, (and results) this villian is on the passive side, making a bet more correct. You need a read to play this river correctly, how often does villian bet as a bluff on river, If he gets this far in a hand is he likely to call river? Can he Bluff Raise? Now that I think about it, against a loose passive player I really like a half pot bet on the river, it might get some value from weaker K's and might save you money if he has a weak J and he would've bet big if you check, but only call if you bet.

[JoblessBast 0]

This is just one of those spots. The way my games have been going lately ( ), there is no correct move... But it seems to me that either a check/call (which is what I usually do) or a smallish value bet on the river are both ok plays. Knowing your opponent might swing the decision one way or the other but it'll never be remotely definitive.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

You always seem to say bet bigger on the flop, why is that? What's wrong with betting 2/3 pot as a standard bet on the flop as either a bet for value or a c-bet?

This board is not dry, it's very wet. 2/3's of the pot comes close to pricing in all draws and makes drawing against us profitable because we pretty much have to call value bets on the end.You also want to get juice out of pots while you can, the river is the most difficult street to extract value out of OOP since the showdown is right afterwards.

[mtdesmoines 3]

went check/check.villain had KQ

I don't mind this. Really.

[Acid_Knight 2]

You always seem to say bet bigger on the flop, why is that? What's wrong with betting 2/3 pot as a standard bet on the flop as either a bet for value or a c-bet?

Because my "standard" c-bet varies. I bet whatever I feel is an appropriate bet for the hand that I hold or am trying to represent. On coordinated boards like that where there are many draws possible, I bet much closer to 80% to 100% of the pot. If the board is K72r, I might only bet 1/2 of the pot as my standard c-bet. If you watch me play, I will raise the same amount preflop if I'm the first to open the pot, but my c-bet amounts vary with board texture and little else. If I saw that flop and I'd raised with pocket 9s or something and I decided to c-bet, I'd be betting $12-$15 just as I would if I'd flopped top set or a draw.Your c-bets should be fairly standard, but they should be situationally standard and not just a set dollar amount or % of the pot.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Because my "standard" c-bet varies. I bet whatever I feel is an appropriate bet for the hand that I hold or am trying to represent. On coordinated boards like that where there are many draws possible, I bet much closer to 80% to 100% of the pot. If the board is K72r, I might only bet 1/2 of the pot as my standard c-bet. If you watch me play, I will raise the same amount preflop if I'm the first to open the pot, but my c-bet amounts vary with board texture and little else. If I saw that flop and I'd raised with pocket 9s or something and I decided to c-bet, I'd be betting $12-$15 just as I would if I'd flopped top set or a draw.Your c-bets should be fairly standard, but they should be situationally standard and not just a set dollar amount or % of the pot.

Over time, these minor adjustments in betting amount add value, and reduce the cost of information. It may not seem like much to make a 15% adjustment in betting, but imagine if your boss walked in and said, "15% raise for you." It would matter. And it does matter.

[NoBBiR 0]

I c-c for value, not because i'm a puss, but because it 1) looks weak, 2) gets more value out of all the missed draws. Only hands that are paying off your bet are K-10 / K-Q

Exactly. Missed draws will bluff whereas few hands will just call that we are beating.

bet a 1/3-2/3 of the pot to see where i am on the river? any reraises would imply J?

No, never. Betting 1/3 of the pot on a not so nice looking river is a nice way to get raised by missed draws and puke/fold. Don't let him push you off of your hand. If you check, he's going to bet his possible Jack for about equal value as your bet would have made, plus you don't have the call a raise or possibly fold and not get info on the villain. He'll check down sometimes with draws and we'll see what he's calling our raises with PF from the button, and then check/calling us down with. We also give him a chance to bluff the river when he misses a draw (Q10, xhxh, etc.).