Pre-flop Esp?

[Potsie P 0]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but I've been reading the forums for a long time and have not seen FCP discussion. I came across this topic a couple years back while reading some grizzled ESPN writer who tried pro poker for a year (he wasn't good, but the commentary was colorful). To me, the answer is a no-brainer, but I'm curious what others think in terms of choice, why and whether it truly is a no-brainer or not.I think the choice gets a little bit more fun if you consider that you're playing HU and whatever you choose, your opponent gets the other option. What say you?Oh, and flame away if popping my forum-posting cherry on such a donk question deserves it. Thanks for the feedback, for all the colorful commentary to date, and hee haw!

[Orcasgt22 0]

I'd rather know the board. Then I can just go AIPF with trash like 9-3o and know im gettin a full house =)

[Maastonacci 0]

instant vote goes to knowing the board.

[aadams_22 3]

I'd rather know the board. Then I can just go AIPF with trash like 9-3o and know im gettin a full house =)

I'd rather know all of the hole cards because you are going to find out what the entire board is anyway. Knowing the board before hand and going all in when it's in your best interest won't earn you as much money as knowing your opponents hole cards. Knowing what your opponent will play and how they will play will allow you to make decisions that will extract the maximum amount of money out of them each time you play against them. Going all in PF with 93o is very reckless, and you will only get called with premium hands that will win out in the long run. What's to say that when you go all in with 93o the board won't read something like 9 9 3 A K. You get called by AA or KK then you are screwed...hell even A9 and K9 have you beat.

[Maastonacci 0]

The thing here is: they are both as good an option as the other, at least I see it that way..I would love to make a 1000 word post, but at this moment my linquist skills are pretty rusty, so it probably wouldn't make any sense :c

[Potsie P 0]

I agree that knowing the board would help you select hands with very high probabilities of winning. That said, there's no guarantee--barring the very best, stone cold nuts--that there wouldn't be a better hand out there. With knowing the opponent's hole cards, you could ALWAYS know exactly what the other player was doing as the hand progresses, and pick off EVERY bluff. I know this option appears more risky than knowing the board at first, but I think it only does so if you limit your perspective (and thus your activity) to pre-flop moves. Any hand you can see to the end, you'll make the correct move EVERY TIME. And by Sklansky's rule (paraphrasing) that winning poker is making every move "as if you could see your opponent's hand," this to me is the nuts.Oh, and factor in that you'd be perceived to be a total SUCKING-OUT DONK who gets expletive-laced rails for one gift, versus a MIND-READING POKER GOD with the awe of even the best in poker for the other, knowing the opponent's cards would just be SO tits. But that's me...

[DCJ001 0]

Daniel was given this exact choice several years ago. He chose to know his opponents' hole cards and it's worked pretty well for him.

[aadams_22 3]

Daniel was given this exact choice several years ago. He chose to know his opponents' hole cards and it's worked pretty well for him.

that's because he's not stupid

[JoeyJoJo 18]

I think the choice gets a little bit more fun if you consider that you're playing HU and whatever you choose, your opponent gets the other option.

Try it with your friend. Deal the cards and then deal the board face down. Your opponent plays his cards face up. Your opponent also gets to look at the board cards before any betting takes place.See who wins.

[SilentButDeadly3 0]

Their holecards, by a long shot. It's not even close. You never make a -EV play unless you are mentally retarded. You can re-steal knowing he'll lay it down. You can get away from cooler hands. You're never faced with a tough decision because you know exactly what they have.

[Maastonacci 0]

I agree that knowing the board would help you select hands with very high probabilities of winning. That said, there's no guarantee--barring the very best, stone cold nuts--that there wouldn't be a better hand out there. With knowing the opponent's hole cards, you could ALWAYS know exactly what the other player was doing as the hand progresses, and pick off EVERY bluff. I know this option appears more risky than knowing the board at first, but I think it only does so if you limit your perspective (and thus your activity) to pre-flop moves. Any hand you can see to the end, you'll make the correct move EVERY TIME. And by Sklansky's rule (paraphrasing) that winning poker is making every move "as if you could see your opponent's hand," this to me is the nuts.Oh, and factor in that you'd be perceived to be a total SUCKING-OUT DONK who gets expletive-laced rails for one gift, versus a MIND-READING POKER GOD with the awe of even the best in poker for the other, knowing the opponent's cards would just be SO tits. But that's me...

This was pretty much what I had in mind, great post.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

With knowing the opponent's hole cards, you could ALWAYS know exactly what the other player was doing as the hand progresses, and pick off EVERY bluff.

But your opponent knows what the board is going to be; why would he do anything but play pre-flop poker? You won't know if he's bluffing because any two cards he holds could be a monster.

[navybuttons 15]

But your opponent knows what the board is going to be; why would he do anything but play pre-flop poker? You won't know if he's bluffing because any two cards he holds could be a monster.

yes. as a matter of fact if villain knew the board calling any raise pf could be -ev.we had this exact, exact same poll a year ago. people said ask tritz, etc.the search funtion isn't working that well this afternoon.

[Potsie P 0]

Try it with your friend. Deal the cards and then deal the board face down. Your opponent plays his cards face up. Your opponent also gets to look at the board cards before any betting takes place.See who wins.

I should've tried it in advance. BTW, do you have a pref yourself? I read your post, perhaps incorrectly, that you'd prefer the board, so you had me thinking just now that perhaps it's a different answer for each situation (I prefer the hole cards if it's just me knowing). Because knowing the board gives you the "power of first bluff"--but you'd have to use it, as it's the only bluff in your arsenal vs. a knower of hole cards. It'd be pretty scary if my opponent who could see the board goes all-in pre-flop with Q3o, knowing that I know he's only got Q3o.Obviously, the advantage shifts to the hole-card expert as soon as the board reveals itself. Something tells me that you could win more small pots than lose big ones if you know the hole cards when your opponent knows the board, even in this situation, so I'm sticking with hole cards...for now.

[Potsie P 0]

yes. as a matter of fact if villain knew the board calling any raise pf could be -ev.we had this exact, exact same poll a year ago. people said ask tritz, etc.the search funtion isn't working that well this afternoon.

Thanks, and figured as much...missed it somehow. Although I guess by your response, there was no definitive answer?

[navybuttons 15]

Thanks, and figured as much...missed it somehow. Although I guess by your response, there was no definitive answer?

yeah. though Joey's responses here is pretty definitive.

[Potsie P 0]

yeah. though Joey's responses here is pretty definitive.

PERHAPS...for HU vs. another ESP-er only. But again, think about it. How many 94o develop into quads? You know he's probably not gonna straight or flush you with 94o, and even if he does in these cases, you might best him anyway (i.e., higher flush).So as a board-knower, you wait around for ages with nut hands? Your opponent could pick off lots of small ones. Put yourself in the board shoes. You got QJo and see a board of AJXXX. Do you go all-in immediately? Eventually you'll get called with any A or KJ or whatever, since he knows what you got anyway.The general lack of "total nut" hands would almost force the board-knower to play coin toss, then, to retain his advantage, wouldn't it? And then it's pretty much 50/50.

[MyPlayIsRAB 0]

my vote goes to putting happy days back on tv, because potsie was an awesome character

[finztotheleft 0]

my vote goes to putting happy days back on tv, because potsie was an awesome character

I kind of enjoyed the whole Pinky and Leather Toscadero (?sp) thing, but someone will bring up "jumping the shark" and kill the discussion.