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2nd Hand Heads Up


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This was the 2nd hand of a $20+2, 256 player, heads up tournament. I'm not sure who won the first hand, but it doesn't really matter. At this point one of us has 1520 in chips, the other has 1480. So we'll just say 1500 each. The blinds are 10/20. I'm the button/small blind. Hero:9c 10h Hero calls $10, Villain checks. Pot now $40 Flop comes 8d Jc Qd Villain bets $60, Hero calls. Pot now $160 Turn comes 8d Jc Qd 4s Villain checks, Hero checks. Pot now $160 River comes 8d Jc Qd 4s 3d Villain bets $140. Pot is now $300.So what is your move here? If you choose to raise, how much do you feel is the right amount. It's only hand 2 so I don't know anything on my opponent yet.

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This was the 2nd hand of a $20+2, 256 player, heads up tournament. I'm not sure who won the first hand, but it doesn't really matter. At this point one of us has 1520 in chips, the other has 1480. So we'll just say 1500 each. The blinds are 10/20. I'm the button/small blind. Hero:9c 10h Hero calls $10, Villain checks. Pot now $40 Flop comes 8d Jc Qd Villain bets $60, Hero calls. Pot now $160 Turn comes 8d Jc Qd 4s Villain checks, Hero checks. Pot now $160 River comes 8d Jc Qd 4s 3d Villain bets $140. Pot is now $300.So what is your move here? If you choose to raise, how much do you feel is the right amount. It's only hand 2 so I don't know anything on my opponent yet.
I'd raise to 350-400 on river, and prepare to go broke if he pushes. If he has the flush so be it.I don't mind the call on the flop, but you should have bet something on the turn. You don't know your opponent well enough yet to make tricky plays like this profitable.
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going broke on this river after checking the turn is absurd.Just call the river,
I'm going to disagree.If you put him on a flush draw you HAVE to bet the turn. If he calls and the flush card comes, then I'd suggest c/c. Not betting the turn is simply incorrect, because of your read. If he's on the draw and misses, he's folding on the river to our bet anyways, so why not make him pay to see the last card and extract more money from him when he's behind? If you think he is drawing dead on the turn then check and hope he bets the river. At this point you just want to maximize his contribution to the pot. You aren't going to slow down on the river, because you are assuming you have the best hand.Now we obviously can't positively put him on a certain hand, but when in doubt about our own hands vulnerability I think it's pretty obvious that we have to make the opponent pay to see the river. Because we chose to check the turn, I think it's going to be very difficult to get away from this hand. Also remember this is HU, so he may well be willing to go broke with TP, 2 pair, or a set.
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reed,you are just wrong here.I fully agree we need to bet turn, if not also raise flop.That's not where I disagreeBut:If I follow your logic:"we slow played our hand on the turn, not putting villain on a flush draw; therefore, when flush comes, we should go with our read, and get it all in if necessary"Is that what you are saying?You realize this is online.We don't have a read after 2 hands.Villain also, bet flop and checked turn and bet river. Pretty much, can't exclude a flush draw. if you raise the river for value, you have to fold to a push.

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Is that what you are saying?You realize this is online.We don't have a read after 2 hands.Villain also, bet flop and checked turn and bet river. Pretty much, can't exclude a flush draw. if you raise the river for value, you have to fold to a push.
I guess since I would never check that turn, I may be making poor assumptions for someone who would. I still think it's much harder to get away from the hand then you are assuming. When he bets that river how often do you really think we are beat? He's going to be betting a very large range of hands. I say he's beating us at most 35% of the time. Probably more like 20-25%. I think anything but a raise is pretty weak. Now I suppose we could get away if he pushed our raise, but I'm not convinced it's the right play. How aggressive do you think somebody would bet a slowplayed set, or a rivered 2 pair here? Some people would just call our raise, but I think many players would have no qualms pushing here. Maybe folding is right, but it still seems close to me.This is pretty pointless though, because when we failed to bet the turn, we lost a huge opportunity to better define our opponents hand. If he calls a turn bet, I play the river much more cautiously, and probably just call his bet.
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Out of curiosity, why do you think him calling a turn bet elliminates the posibility of my opponent holding a set or a pair which becomes a 2 pair on the river? What range of hands is elliminated by a turn bet and call, other then a bluff. And if my opponent is bluffing, just callling is the right play, since he will fold to a raise.

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Out of curiosity, why do you think him calling a turn bet elliminates the posibility of my opponent holding a set or a pair which becomes a 2 pair on the river? What range of hands is elliminated by a turn bet and call, other then a bluff. And if my opponent is bluffing, just callling is the right play, since he will fold to a raise.
If he has a set or say TP, he'll probably raise the turn if you bet. You've shown you think you have a decent hand, and at this point he'll probably surmise that his hand is better. I doubt he wants to give you a free card to a flush or straight. He'd probably be more likely to just call with an 8, J, or flush draw. This is hardly set in stone, but just what seems most likely. So if you bet the turn, you can get a little better idea of where he's at. If the flush card hits on the river you will probably now just call his bet rather than raise. Why is calling the right play if he bluffs? You are giving him free information by showing down your hand. Unless you want to show him how passively you played your nut hand.
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Well first off I completely agree a turn bet is correct, I was just curious into hearing more explanation on your logic. The reason i said a call is correct if we believe he is bluffing is because a raise wins the same amount of money (he folds if he is bluffing) except it takes the added risk of being reraised with a hand that beats us. However, since our hand is so powerful that it is posible we will be reraised with a hand that we can still beat, maybe calling isn't correct if we put him on a bluff for the reason you pointed out, hiding information.In the actual hand, the moment that river card hit I knew i just screwed up and my first thought was "how much am I going to lose this hand?" After he bet I called quickly (we all know I can't fold the hand here) and he showed Jd 2d for the winning flush. He now led 1700-1300, but I came back to win. A big part of my decision to call instead of raise is my own confidence in heads up. I felt like I was one of the best players in the tournament (I've done extremely well in heads-up tournaments) and I felt I could win the match regardless of the result of this hand if I could just avoid going broke. It was interesting to hear the several different ideas on the hand. We all seem to agree I should have bet the turn (it's not clear how much I would have had to bet to make him fold, my mistake probably helped).

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