InsanityCubed 0 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 A free WSOP ME sat on UB. 3600 people, only 1st paid. I normally wouldn't have bothered, but a friend won the qualifier so I figured why not? I play very well for the first 4 hours, and the field is down to 330. I got lucky on one cold deck, AA vs KK, but otherwise was rarely in any kind of trouble. The blinds are up to 200-400 with a 75 ante.I start the hand with 24k, BB with 21k, and UTG with 19k.UTG raises to 4k, folds to me. I decide to make a questionable call with the 88, trying to get lucky and get my stack back among the leaders. BB also calls, making for a very healthy pot. I like the fact that they both have medium stacks, and begin formulating plans for after the flop.FLOP: 4-6-6 rainbow Pot: `13kBB checks, UTG bets 3.5k. Every bone in my body says that's a weak bet. This guy wants to test the waters, but conserve enough of his stack to fight on. If I raise to 12k or so, I'm putting more than half my stack in, and could outthink myself if I get reraised all in. I do not want to attempt and fight on with an 8k stack. The BB probably won't want to risk their whole stack without 99 or better, and a preflop reraise would have been likely with JJ and up. A-6 is in the back of my mind, but from the SB? for 4k? So I push. BB thinks for 3 seconds, and calls, my read on UTG was correct, as he insta-folds.BB tables 56 off, and I am confused, bewildered, and mildly curious if I was drunk and misreading the hand.... Nope, 56off. The board predictably bricks out. I'm left with a pittance, and go out with a profound whimper soon after. So, there was probably some venting in there, but was the play good? bad? useless? Appreciate your thoughts. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 don't give resultsdon't pretend to want help by posting a bad beat story in Strategy Link to post Share on other sites
TRHScc814 0 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Reraise push preflop.Shove flop over the top. Link to post Share on other sites
throwemaway 0 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Dont post results.Push the flop. Dont post results.Only one place paysDont post results.What was the average stack?Dont post results.EDIT: Holy crap thats a 10x raise from UTG..Fold so you dont have to make a tough flop decision or or push pf if you feel like you have a solid read Link to post Share on other sites
....Ian.... 0 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 don't give resultsdon't pretend to want help by posting a bad beat story in StrategyNH sir Link to post Share on other sites
InsanityCubed 0 Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 Sorry about the results, brain fart.It's not a bad beat story, when the money went in I was a significant dog. I thought I mentioned it, my stack was around average.In all honesty, the results I don't really care about. BB made a weird call, got lucky, oh well. I'm more concerned with whether the push on the flop was good, as well as why people would suggest pushing PF. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 ur right, it's not a bad beat.push or fold preflop.flop is fine, just unfortunate Link to post Share on other sites
InsanityCubed 0 Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 ur right, it's not a bad beat.push or fold preflop.flop is fine, just unfortunateWhy the push preflop? I can fold after the flop if the situation isn't right, since 22k isn't a horrible amount. I understand the importance of getting hands like 56 out, but if I push any big ace will call me, and see all 5 cards. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 with jsut 1 paying, you need to gamble a ton to accum chips.If he turns over any two cards that are not over pairs, it's an easy push.I think fold is best give UTG, but call is by very very far the worst. Link to post Share on other sites
InsanityCubed 0 Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 with jsut 1 paying, you need to gamble a ton to accum chips.If he turns over any two cards that are not over pairs, it's an easy push.I think fold is best give UTG, but call is by very very far the worst.Makes sense. I knew I needed to gamble big with only one paying, but I guess I didn't take it far enough. I thought it was actually a borderline decision between all 3 options. Link to post Share on other sites
timwakefield 68 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 I don't see how anybody could consider playing 88 after a 10X raise from UTG, which is over 20% of his stack. Unless you have some kind of read on him, a raise like that means he has a big pair or AK.Fold preflop. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 I don't see how anybody could consider playing 88 after a 10X raise from UTG, which is over 20% of his stack. Unless you have some kind of read on him, a raise like that means he has a big pair or AK.Fold preflop.AK yeah, but 10x BB to me says I don't want action..so take out AA-QQso, yeah, like I said, fold is best! Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 10x the big blind says to me JJ, TT, or AK. Add 99, QQ, or AA from an odd player, and that's all I ever see make that move in that position. Since you are dominated by 5 of those hands and a coin flip with one, this is an obvious fold. You played the hand terribly. Oh, and if the BB hadn't pushed, you probably would have lost to UTG. Don't feel bad about losing to a donk, you played the hand terribly too. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Iggy,post flop though.. is fine, no ? Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Assuming that we call PF, we certainly have to push a low flop. I mean we couldn't have been calling for set value. However, it's still probably a money losing play. I bet we win this hand about 30% of the time when we push here. I suppose I could be biased by playing higher limit tourneys, but when I played the lower buy-ins, I certainly don't remember people raising 10x the big blind UTG with AQ or worse. I really think that even with the low flop, pushing is probably -EV in the long run. Link to post Share on other sites
InsanityCubed 0 Posted July 22, 2006 Author Share Posted July 22, 2006 10x the big blind says to me JJ, TT, or AK. Add 99, QQ, or AA from an odd player, and that's all I ever see make that move in that position. Since you are dominated by 5 of those hands and a coin flip with one, this is an obvious fold. You played the hand terribly. Oh, and if the BB hadn't pushed, you probably would have lost to UTG. Don't feel bad about losing to a donk, you played the hand terribly too.I have to say, you're way off here. You're giving the opponents far too much credit in a situation like this (freeroll). People were simply not that selective, including this guy. I felt that while the call was borderline, I wanted to gamble, and try to get myself into a situation where I could win a big pot. Link to post Share on other sites
Dannon 0 Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Well if you're going to call with 88 and hope to get lucky, you can't fault the 5 6 for calling either. The hand shoudl have ended preflop. Link to post Share on other sites
The Nuts 0 Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 AK yeah, but 10x BB to me says I don't want action..so take out AA-QQso, yeah, like I said, fold is best!In micro-limits and freerolls, most bets mean what they mean. I never understood why people bet so big in those situations, but they just do.10x BB from UTG. This is most definitely not a steal. People who bet from UTG want to see flops. Otherwise, they should be folding.This is an autofold for me. Link to post Share on other sites
InsanityCubed 0 Posted July 22, 2006 Author Share Posted July 22, 2006 Well if you're going to call with 88 and hope to get lucky, you can't fault the 5 6 for calling either. The hand shoudl have ended preflop."fault" the 56? Why on earth would I do that? I'd prefer two callers here to one, and if someone wants to play a hand that bad, OOP, then good for them.The only thing that's confusing me here is people saying raise or fold, then saying that it's really important to gamble. At this level, the players were far more likely to try and avoid flops with AK and see flops with JJ, counterintuitive though it may be. By calling, I'm taking a chance to hit a set, or get myself in a good situation to steal a nice pot. Raising seems like the worst option the more I think about it, as UTG is not folding any hands to the raise PF. The only problem with calling is the danger from hands behind me, since I can't call a reraise, and some trash might sneak in. I ended up "inducing" a call from the BB, but it's not a call I hate, it makes the pot bigger. If BB doesn't hit trips, there's even a chance that UTG calls me postflop with a hand like AK or AQ, which is very good for me. Folding = good, but I think that a call is a better gamble than a raise here. Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Folding > calling > raising because the more chips you put in here, the more you're likely to lose. In this particular hand, UTG probably had AK, but for every time he has that, there are three times that you're dominated. Also, I don't care if it's a freeroll; if you've been playing for four hours, people are not just throwing their chips in like donkeys. They're playing to win. I'd say you're a significant favorite with the 88 hand less than 3% of the time preflop, and as such, it's an easy fold. Link to post Share on other sites
Highlow16 0 Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 I agree with Iggy. You shouldnt call of almost 20% of your stack against an under the gun raiser with a speculative middle pair like 77. Link to post Share on other sites
InsanityCubed 0 Posted July 23, 2006 Author Share Posted July 23, 2006 Folding > calling > raising because the more chips you put in here, the more you're likely to lose. In this particular hand, UTG probably had AK, but for every time he has that, there are three times that you're dominated. Also, I don't care if it's a freeroll; if you've been playing for four hours, people are not just throwing their chips in like donkeys. They're playing to win. I'd say you're a significant favorite with the 88 hand less than 3% of the time preflop, and as such, it's an easy fold.That's the conclusion I've come to now. Folding > calling > raising nails it. Thanks for the help. Link to post Share on other sites
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