mtt strategy discussion

[GrinderMJ 0]

This week my game has been a little off, and have felt like I've played very poor poker at time. I've been thinking about what I've been doing wrong, so I thought I would toss around some ideas, strategies and possible plays that i think my fix some holes in my and possibly others people's games. Feel free to add input:First Hour-Deep stack low blind pokerI struggle very much with this type of play, and have no idea how to play hands, good deepstack players, are you playing tight? Playing very loose, lots of hands? Limping? Raising? Calling raises with speculative hands, trying to win big pots early? I would love some input on this from like PMjackson, Lasombra, Hoosier, Zimmer anybody.First Hour- Fast rising blinds, low stack pokerThis is more suited to tournies on Stars where you start with 15o0 and the blinds increase relatively fast. How are you guys playing this first hour, calling raises with speculative hands? Limping? Raising a lot? Raising only with good position or good hands? Waiting for monsters? I have really been struggling with first hour play in tournaments regardless of stack size, so I could really use some help.Button PlayA play I like to employ that i think is EXTREMELY effective a little later in MTT's is button bullying. Not the usual play that you are thinking of, but identifying the players who raise frequently, and love to steal blinds. If you can find a smart player, but one who likes to raise a lot preflop, you being on the button for his raises can chip up your stack steadily. Suppose you raise the cutoff with a wide range of hands trying to steal the blinds, what's the WORST possible scenario for you, a reraise or call from the button. So, if i see an aggressive player raising a lot from MP3, or the cutoff, I start to frustrate him by calling or reraising from the button. Calling is a lot tougher scenario, but if you believe he's gonna continuation bet the flop with anything, a raise or smooth call will win a nice little pot many times. If you call his flop bet, he's gonna shut down a majority of the time, and you can lead 2/3 to 3/4 pot and take it down very often. ABUSING LOOSE POSITION RAISERS WITH THE BUTTON CAN HELP YOU SLOWLY CHIP UP THROUGH THE TOURNEY. I know alot of you already knwo the importance of position, but this play is one I don't see often, and I know if i'm the loose cutoff raiser (I am) nothing frustrates me more than a guy who has position on me and won't stop tormenting me. Rebuy First Hour playSuccessful rebuy players, do you feel it's more profitable to play your regular game and hope to accumulate, or do you go all in a lot preflop and be a maniac? If not, are you calling raises with speculative or good hands and waiting to see a flop before you play all in pots? I would love input on this subject also. Short Stack PlayOnce again, this is a topic that has been discussed and written about before, but I thought it was important enough to reiterate. I sometimes get impatient and ignore my own advice, but patience is the only way to play a short stack. Patient aggression. Be the first one in the pot when you're going to push unless you have a monster. So many times players say well it's been raised to me, but I'm short and have a10, I can't get away. Yes, yes you can, wait until you are first in, and leave yourself the option of stealing hte blinds without being called. These topics are all I can think of as of now, I would love to hear what you guys think about the ideas I brought up, or even advice for me in the areas where i feel i've been playing poorly lately. I think threads like this (if they can generate intelligent poker discussion) are what we need in this forum more, this can be productive and helpful, unlike the majority of threads in general.

[Matt_Damon 0]

Matt Damon

[Longshanks 0]

Matt Damon

gay and lame, this shit is soooooo not 1.4

[GrinderMJ 0]

Matt Damon

speedz don't gay up this thread please, I'm trying to actually have some intelligent discussion in a thread for once. i thought you only did the matt damon in stupid threads, is this one of them?

[Longshanks 0]

Matt Damon

speedz don't gay up this thread please, I'm trying to actually have some intelligent discussion in a thread for once. i thought you only did the matt damon in stupid threads, is this one of them?

that is speedz? well in that case its gay lame and canadian, i think his point also was this isnt in the strat forum

[MikeJohnson724 0]

Matt Damon

speedz don't gay up this thread please, I'm trying to actually have some intelligent discussion in a thread for once. i thought you only did the matt damon in stupid threads, is this one of them?

Good topic, look forward to hearing what PM has to say.

[GrinderMJ 0]

Matt Damon

speedz don't gay up this thread please, I'm trying to actually have some intelligent discussion in a thread for once. i thought you only did the matt damon in stupid threads, is this one of them?

that is speedz? well in that case its gay lame and canadian, i think his point also was this isnt in the strat forum

strat is dead, i post strategy in general because it actually generates responses.

[radar37 0]

Lately I have been having trouble more around the bubble or shortly after. I think 8 of my last 10 tournys I have turned my starting stack of 1500 or 3000 (full tilt double stack) into over 20000 but have not made one final table. Been doing great at the beginning, say first couple hours and then just crapping out. I think I have a problem staying focused for that long and after a couple straight hours of good play, I make some poor decisions, like coming back over the top committing myself with a pair of 9s because I'm sure the other guy has ak aq. Well guess what stupid you were right but you committed yourself and lost the race. Just stuff like that taking huge risks at poor times like right before the bubble thinking I can build a big stack because people are scared of busting out. Enough rambling, just trying to figure out why I can't get my game together lately. I've had a tough year so far, playing way to much and I'm just even. Haven't made a thing. Well enough whining from me, I'll get my shit together soon. And if not I'm retiring to 1 2 stud permanently to make 4 dollars an hour :-)

[PMJackson21 0]

This week my game has been a little off, and have felt like I've played very poor poker at time. I've been thinking about what I've been doing wrong, so I thought I would toss around some ideas, strategies and possible plays that i think my fix some holes in my and possibly others people's games. Feel free to add input:

Ha, if I'm not careful I might spend my whole day responding to this post; I tend to overwrite, so I'll try and answer each one quickly with little to no rambling. In preface, you must understand that each situation differs depending on your table dynamics. For the most part, you want to play the opposite of how the rest of the table is playing, regardless of what stage in the tournament you are at.

First Hour-Deep stack low blind pokerI struggle very much with this type of play, and have no idea how to play hands, good deepstack players, are you playing tight? Playing very loose, lots of hands? Limping? Raising? Calling raises with speculative hands, trying to win big pots early? I would love some input on this from like PMjackson, Lasombra, Hoosier, Zimmer anybody.

Deep stack poker plays a lot like a cash game...People have plenty of chips in comparison to the blinds, so you can mix it up a little bit more. I try to avoid hands that will lead to trouble, like AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ, AT etc early on, and would rather play hands like suited connectors (as well as one gap, and two gap), connectors, small to mid pp, suited aces, and the like. My goal with these hands is to try and see a flop cheaply, then capitalize on it if I flop something strong. At this stage in a tournament, your implied odds on hands like those I mentioned are great because you can often catch someone overplaying TPTK or an over pair. Another benefit of playing hands like this is that they are easily definable after the flop - either you are going to to play it, or it's an easy fold, which is not always the case with AQ/AJ etc.If I do play hands like AQ/AJ, I play them very passively/like a drawing hand.

First Hour- Fast rising blinds, low stack pokerThis is more suited to tournies on Stars where you start with 15o0 and the blinds increase relatively fast. How are you guys playing this first hour, calling raises with speculative hands? Limping? Raising a lot? Raising only with good position or good hands? Waiting for monsters? I have really been struggling with first hour play in tournaments regardless of stack size, so I could really use some help.

In the normal 1500 chip Stars tournaments I play a very TAG game, unless the table seems like a push over. With less chips at my disposal, I try and conserve them for when I need them and not waste them with speculative hands. Once I get a stack (if I do), I open up a bit more and take advantage of the fact that most people are short stacked. That being said, I tend to be more successful in deep stack formats. I tend to do quite well in rebuy tournaments (in fact my pokerdb stars are dominated by rebuys), the UB $100+ tournaments, and in a much smaller sample size, big buy in live events.

Button PlayA play I like to employ that i think is EXTREMELY effective a little later in MTT's is button bullying. Not the usual play that you are thinking of, but identifying the players who raise frequently, and love to steal blinds. If you can find a smart player, but one who likes to raise a lot preflop, you being on the button for his raises can chip up your stack steadily. Suppose you raise the cutoff with a wide range of hands trying to steal the blinds, what's the WORST possible scenario for you, a reraise or call from the button. So, if i see an aggressive player raising a lot from MP3, or the cutoff, I start to frustrate him by calling or reraising from the button. Calling is a lot tougher scenario, but if you believe he's gonna continuation bet the flop with anything, a raise or smooth call will win a nice little pot many times. If you call his flop bet, he's gonna shut down a majority of the time, and you can lead 2/3 to 3/4 pot and take it down very often. ABUSING LOOSE POSITION RAISERS WITH THE BUTTON CAN HELP YOU SLOWLY CHIP UP THROUGH THE TOURNEY. I know alot of you already knwo the importance of position, but this play is one I don't see often, and I know if i'm the loose cutoff raiser (I am) nothing frustrates me more than a guy who has position on me and won't stop tormenting me.

Re-stealing is a very effective tool in any good NL tournament player's bag of tricks. It's something you should do more of in deep stack tournaments then in tournaments where players have short stacks in comparison to the blinds however, because in those situations the original raiser is more likely to say f it and go all in with any sort of hand. Also, you need to have enough chips to absorb the times it doesn't work out.Something you might see me do in a MTT is limp from the button with a hand like a5 etc. I don't like raising from the button with hands that are marginal considering people's new found fondness of playing back at button raises, so I'll often limp. It allows me to get away from the hand cheaply if there is any significant action from either blind, it confuses the blinds because they _expect_ you to raise and figure you might have limped with a big hand, and since you will have position post flop you will often be able to take the pot down with a small bet when checked to (or even raise a bet and represent the big hand). Look at how Gavin Griffin's button limp in the WSOP PLHE event threw his opponent's for a complete loop.

Rebuy First Hour playSuccessful rebuy players, do you feel it's more profitable to play your regular game and hope to accumulate, or do you go all in a lot preflop and be a maniac? If not, are you calling raises with speculative or good hands and waiting to see a flop before you play all in pots? I would love input on this subject also.

Depending on the table, I will either play TAG or LAG. If Pharlap or someone similar is at my table and I know they will be pushing the action, I sit back and wait for a semi decent hand and come over the top of them. If the table is full of tight players, I'll play a lot more pots, hoping to liven things up a bit. Like I've said in other threads, there is nothing more damaging to your chances in a rebuy tournament then to be stuck at a table with no chips in play. It is a severe handicap post-break, and you should do everything in your power to avoid it. I'm not going to go into a full analysis of the benefits of playing a LAG/maniac type game in the first hour of these tournaments, but the benefits can be found in other threads/forums.Once I do get chips however, I will tighten up. My goal in the first hour is to give myself a deep enough stack to play optimally post-break. Once that is accomplished, I see no need to risk my stack without a premium hand/or situation. If you are up to 15k and a maniac like Pharlap is pushing with any two cards, why call off a good portion of your stack with a hand like AQ? Once I get chips in the rebuy period, I'm not going to risk them with ace high normally.

Short Stack PlayOnce again, this is a topic that has been discussed and written about before, but I thought it was important enough to reiterate. I sometimes get impatient and ignore my own advice, but patience is the only way to play a short stack. Patient aggression. Be the first one in the pot when you're going to push unless you have a monster. So many times players say well it's been raised to me, but I'm short and have a10, I can't get away. Yes, yes you can, wait until you are first in, and leave yourself the option of stealing hte blinds without being called.

Ya, patience is the key. I'm a huge proponent of first in vig. Don't fall in love with the first ace you see or the first paint; analyze the situation and make sure you are giving yourself the best chance to survive. Pushing into a raise and a call with AT without any fold equity is not the way to do that.If I am _extremely_ short stacked ( I mean 3 bb or below range) I will only play a premium hand and instead wait for the bb to hit me to commit my chips. With no fold equity, you are going to get called by hands that have you in bad shape normally if you push with a marginal hand, but if you wait until the BB you will often get people to come after you with lackluster hands. It's probably the only thing I have ever, and ever will, agree with Russ Boyd on.

These topics are all I can think of as of now, I would love to hear what you guys think about the ideas I brought up, or even advice for me in the areas where i feel i've been playing poorly lately. I think threads like this (if they can generate intelligent poker discussion) are what we need in this forum more, this can be productive and helpful, unlike the majority of threads in general.

Agreed, good thought provoking post. :-)Patrick

[GrinderMJ 0]

Lately I have been having trouble more around the bubble or shortly after. I think 8 of my last 10 tournys I have turned my starting stack of 1500 or 3000 (full tilt double stack) into over 20000 but have not made one final table. Been doing great at the beginning, say first couple hours and then just crapping out. I think I have a problem staying focused for that long and after a couple straight hours of good play, I make some poor decisions, like coming back over the top committing myself with a pair of 9s because I'm sure the other guy has ak aq. Well guess what stupid you were right but you committed yourself and lost the race. Just stuff like that taking huge risks at poor times like right before the bubble thinking I can build a big stack because people are scared of busting out. Enough rambling, just trying to figure out why I can't get my game together lately. I've had a tough year so far, playing way to much and I'm just even. Haven't made a thing. Well enough whining from me, I'll get my censored together soon. And if not I'm retiring to 1 2 stud permanently to make 4 dollars an hour :-)

Full tilt tourneys have the sweetest MTT structure you can ask for, blinds are important to steal but not a crapshoot push fest. Once the bubble bursts and you've made the money, especially if you've been aggressive, you've got to just fold and sit on your hands. Nothing except premium hands because once the short stacks make the money they feel compelled to push any hand right away. Just wait till they clear out the small stacks, and once the tables tighten back up, resume your normal game and steal steal steal. Play small pots with bad hands and only play big pots with big hands, that's a concept I don't follow someitmes and I always kill myself for it. I hope this helps yoru game a little bit.

[MikeJohnson724 0]

More Rambling PM, come on man!

[GrinderMJ 0]

PM you are by far my favorite poster

[PMJackson21 0]

More Rambling PM, come on man!

Ha, actually I forgot a few things I wanted to include, specifically one thing about short stack play...but it's break time and my body is demanding nicotine. I'll finish up in a bit.

PM you are by far my favorite poster

Pfft, that's like the time they had the poll for player of the year and I won, and Royal said I'd get frozen yogurt.I'm still waiting.Heh, thank you for the kind sentiments though. :-)Patrick

[Vatche 0]

lot of good info in your whole post Patrick, but this paragraph got my attention...i never really thought of this and its a very intresting point of view, AND IT MAKES A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE...thx. :-)

If I am _extremely_ short stacked ( I mean 3 bb or below range) I will only play a premium hand and instead wait for the bb to hit me to commit my chips. With no fold equity, you are going to get called by hands that have you in bad shape normally if you push with a marginal hand, but if you wait until the BB you will often get people to come after you with lackluster hands. It's probably the only thing I have ever, and ever will, agree with Russ Boyd on.

[chester97 0]

good post pm. and good topic post grinder. this is what the forum should be like. :clap:

[doublemeup 0]

MTT is -EV

[GrinderMJ 0]

MTT is -EV

YOU'RE -EV, YA HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT

[HoosierAlum 0]

Good post MJ.There is alot I want to add, but I have to drive into the city now. I just wanted to make a post in the thread so I could come back sometime this weekend and write a few things.P.S. PM and Grinder, you guys should play the Sunday night $200 HORSE on Tilt. It only draws around 120 people, and its a really fun tournament.

[GrinderMJ 0]

Good post MJ.There is alot I want to add, but I have to drive into the city now. I just wanted to make a post in the thread so I could come back sometime this weekend and write a few things.P.S. PM and Grinder, you guys should play the Sunday night $200 HORSE on Tilt. It only draws around 120 people, and its a really fun tournament.

Hoosier, i suck at all things not NLHE

[PMJackson21 0]

Good post MJ.There is alot I want to add, but I have to drive into the city now. I just wanted to make a post in the thread so I could come back sometime this weekend and write a few things.P.S. PM and Grinder, you guys should play the Sunday night $200 HORSE on Tilt. It only draws around 120 people, and its a really fun tournament.

Ya, I've been meaning to put money into FTP and Paradise for a bit now, but I'm lazy about moving money in and out of Neteller. I was thinking about playing some Party MTTs as well, but I heard the new structure isn't very good (although they added antes). When FTP first started I played there for a bit out of loyalty to RGP (Perry was pimping FTP a lot on there), but at the time their tournament selection really didn't do anything for me. I did play in the very first HORSE tournament though which was a private RGP tourney.Anyway, thanks for the heads up regarding the $200 Horse tourney. Patrick

[GrinderMJ 0]

Another topic I think is interesting, is when you are playing a big pot early, say a 1000 chip pot when blinds are low say 20-40 30/60 and you have the nuts or obviously the best hand, and your opponent bets minimum into the massive pot. Are you raising in relation to his bet, or are you raising in relation to the size of the pot. It always seems strange to raise to 240 in a 1000 chip pot and seems strange to raise from 60 to 800. For this discussion, assume we are at the river. Thoughts?

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

PM you are by far my favorite poster

fuck you and fuck PM. Him and his "poker knowledge", what does he know anyway? It's not like he final tabled and events or.... wait, ummm, nevermind.Well, he still likes men right?

[GrinderMJ 0]

Patrick, i know this is a lot to ask, but sometime this weekend or next week, in the stars 150, for maybe a half hour or the first hour, wold it be possible to get on AIM with you to maybe have you take a look at how I'm playing hands in the first hour, to see if you find hands you do'nt like and maybe help me identify some leaks.

[Guest]

Thanks guys for your suggestions and help. I'm in a similar funk with bubbling and when I have a good chip lead, I don't tighten up enough and end up chipping off enough to cost me the final table. On another note though, I had an interesting hand last week in a full tilt tourney that i'm interested in your thoughts concerning. I'd post the hh but it's at home so i'll recap.Final hand before the first break, I'm on the button with AA (7,000 chips and 2nd table leader and top 15 in the tourney) with the blinds at 50/100. Table folds around to table leader (12,000 and near chip leader) who limps. All fold to me and I raise to 300. Both blinds fold and table leader calls. (fyi, I had been just moved to this table so i don't have any history with this guy to know his tendencies.)FLOP: 88KWe both check. (i'm hoping here he has a K and will bet out the turn)TURN: xHe bets 500 and i raise 1000. He raises me 1000 and i reraise another 1000 more. He then reraises All In. I immediately call thinking he has AK which was just plain dumb in hindsight because had i thought for a second i would have realized he would probably have not limped with a hand as strong as AK even though he was the first into the pot. I can certainly get out of this hand here (while cutting my stack in half but still above average), but is it such a bad call to make for my tournament life? He could have any range of hands like 99-QQ, K10-AK which i could beat or he could be flat out bluffing. My fear was A8 of course, and then he turned over 88 for the dagger. One thing that occurs to me was that my hope that he had a K on the flop may have affected the rest of my play. I confused "a read" that he had a K with "a hope" that he had a K.Other than the obvious, how would you play the hand differently and what would be your thoughts at each stage? I'm fairly new to posting, so i hope i've given enough information.Thanks guys,Ryan

[PMJackson21 0]

lot of good info in your whole post Patrick, but this paragraph got my attention...i never really thought of this and its a very intresting point of view, AND IT MAKES A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE...thx. :-)

If I am _extremely_ short stacked ( I mean 3 bb or below range) I will only play a premium hand and instead wait for the bb to hit me to commit my chips. With no fold equity, you are going to get called by hands that have you in bad shape normally if you push with a marginal hand, but if you wait until the BB you will often get people to come after you with lackluster hands. It's probably the only thing I have ever, and ever will, agree with Russ Boyd on.

Here's a thread from last year on RGP that deals with this strategy. Pay particular attention to nshen...@yahoo.com's post. Very good explanation.http://groups.google.com/group/rec.gamblin...4103c4852b5a5c0Patrick