Hand From Hpt Indiana Main Event

[ScottK2001 0]

So I just played in the HPT Main Event in Indiana, and the following hand came up about 3-4 hours in.Starting stack was 15K, and I was up to approx 25K after doubling up about 10 hands in. Average was approx 17,500. Blinds 200-400.I had been at a new table for around an hour. Villain was an older guy (probably in his 50's) wearing a fairly worn Poker Stars polo, who seemed like a very solid player. He had around 15K in chips. I hadn't played too many hands at the new table, and based on how things had been going, I probably had a weak/tight image.On the hand in question, Villain, UTG, makes it 1050, and I decided to just call UTG+2 with QQ. UTG+3 also calls, and everyone else folds. Flop comes K-9-8 rainbow. Villain makes it 3000, I call, and the other guy folds.Turn comes another 8, still rainbow, and Villain shoves his last 10,600. If I call and lose, I'm left with approx 10K. What do you do?

[Mercury69 3]

Oh, goody! Another weak setmine with QQ!Well, as many will tell you, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure I'm 3 betting PF (to about 3.4K) and probably folding to a shove. On the flop, if my 3 bet is flatted, I would likely lay it down to a strong bet when that K hits. If Villain checks to me, I think a bet is likely called for, but I'd make it about 40% of the pot as a probe. As played, fold to the shove.

[RakeMyBlind 0]

Oh, goody! Another weak setmine with QQ!Well, as many will tell you, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure I'm 3 betting PF (to about 3.4K) and probably folding to a shove. On the flop, if my 3 bet is flatted, I would likely lay it down to a strong bet when that K hits. If Villain checks to me, I think a bet is likely called for, but I'd make it about 40% of the pot as a probe. As played, fold to the shove.

Why would you 3-bet if you intend to fold? I'm not criticizing just wondering why you would have that plan against a "solid player". I mean if your thinking I'm folding if this guy shoves over me, why not just flat and re-evaluate after the flop.

[GOCUBSGO 77]

I dont mind flatting QQ preflop with position on a good player. I think arguments can be made for a 3-bet, but if he shoves then we are put in a tough spot. We could be completely dominated, we could be flipping, or we could be way ahead, but at this stage in the tournament do we really want to guess for a large chunk of our chips? If we don't feel like this player would shove back with anything but a premium hand (AA, KK, AK) then we should be 3-betting. If he is capable of making a play, I don't mind flatting.On the flop, I'm pretty torn. Part of me says I play it the same way and just call his bet, but part of me says we should raise it and see how he reacts. If he shoves all in, I think its a pretty easy fold. If he flats the raise, then we get to see what he does first on the turn.As played I'm folding the turn.I would like to hear more opinions though...

[cdipierr 0]

I dont mind flatting QQ preflop with position on a good player. I think arguments can be made for a 3-bet, but if he shoves then we are put in a tough spot. We could be completely dominated, we could be flipping, or we could be way ahead, but at this stage in the tournament do we really want to guess for a large chunk of our chips? If we don't feel like this player would shove back with anything but a premium hand (AA, KK, AK) then we should be 3-betting. If he is capable of making a play, I don't mind flatting.On the flop, I'm pretty torn. Part of me says I play it the same way and just call his bet, but part of me says we should raise it and see how he reacts. If he shoves all in, I think its a pretty easy fold. If he flats the raise, then we get to see what he does first on the turn.As played I'm folding the turn.I would like to hear more opinions though...

Raising his flop bet intending to fold is the same "raising for info" problem you have pre. Basically as you said, if you think he'll shove anything other than AA, KK, AK, then get it in pre. If not, flat, and then fold to flop bet. Your read shouldn't change because the K came.

[Mercury69 3]

Why would you 3-bet if you intend to fold? I'm not criticizing just wondering why you would have that plan against a "solid player". I mean if your thinking I'm folding if this guy shoves over me, why not just flat and re-evaluate after the flop.

Yeah, it's a good point. My "thinking" is this:If you 3 bet to 3.4K (it's variable, I just picked the amount I had stated) and he shoves, you have that decision of fold or call, right, but if you look at the way it played out, even if you fold PF, you're "saving" about 1K (which you wouldn't actually know at the time). If you flat, this allows Villain to bluff at the K (some if the time) and the 3 bet PF will help determine if a K is in his range (AA, AK, KK, w/e). Of course, if villain is good, he might just be shipping with 77 (PF or Flop), for example, but I think flatting the flop bet is just begging to be shoved on and you really don't know any more than you did.Is that coherent...?Edit: CDPierre, good point about the read vs the K, but I think you have to factor it in, at least a little.

[rrumsey 0]

Yeah, it's a good point. My "thinking" is this:If you 3 bet to 3.4K (it's variable, I just picked the amount I had stated) and he shoves, you have that decision of fold or call, right, but if you look at the way it played out, even if you fold PF, you're "saving" about 1K (which you wouldn't actually know at the time). If you flat, this allows Villain to bluff at the K (some if the time) and the 3 bet PF will help determine if a K is in his range (AA, AK, KK, w/e). Of course, if villain is good, he might just be shipping with 77 (PF or Flop), for example, but I think flatting the flop bet is just begging to be shoved on and you really don't know any more than you did.Is that coherent...?Edit: CDPierre, good point about the read vs the K, but I think you have to factor it in, at least a little.

well put!

[ScottK2001 0]

So as played, most people say to fold the turn--which is what I ended up doing. But here's where I think I went wrong, and why in hindsight I think it was a mistake.When I called the bet on the flop, the pot had around 9500 in it. Villain at that point only had 10K remaining. If he had a really strong hand, or even any sort of King, wouldn't he bet 4K or 5K, committing me to call on the river, too? Also, given the pot odds, I'd only need to be correct one in three times for it to be a breakeven call (though I know in this type of setting I need to go beyond the math). Also, he's pretty heavily invested in the hand, and that's a pretty significant pot for him to want to pick up given that he'd be above average with 20K, and half average at 10K.After I folded, he said he had AK. When we got up for the next break, he said "maybe I didn't have AK, I don't remember," and when he threw his hand away when I folded, it looked like there was a J in there.Playing the hand back, I feel like 10-J makes a lot of sense for him in that spot. With 9500 in the pot and 10,600 behind, would he really shove with AK, KK, KQ, or an 8? I just don't see what he'd really be afraid of to cause him to shove...unless he really had a monster and thought I would call--since he said he put me on KQ.Also, the reason for not 3-betting pre was primarily that there seemed to be a lot of squeezing going on, and I was hoping to take advantage of that. And if not, I was in position on the initial raiser. Out-of-position, I 3-bet for sure.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

I like a flat with QQ at UTG+2. With his image of weak/tight and his early position...if he suddenly 3bets a UTG raise from UTG+2, people are going to put him on a big hand. It makes no sense to 3bet here because it will give away his hand and when it folds back to UTG, he will dump a WIDE range of hands here. Its not a "weak set-mine" like you put it, Mercury.Also, with his perceived image, it DOES present a decent squeeze spot for an aggro opponent behind and that should definitely be included in the thought process behind raising or flatting PF.I think you are right about his betsizing. He probably doesn't put you on AK so he can easily try and rep AK. I mean he never is going to have KJ here because what is he shoving for that is going to get called by a weak-tight player that he beats? You have 2 Q blockers. I can find a case for a call here.

[Mercury69 3]

I like a flat with QQ at UTG+2. With his image of weak/tight and his early position...if he suddenly 3bets a UTG raise from UTG+2, people are going to put him on a big hand. It makes no sense to 3bet here because it will give away his hand and when it folds back to UTG, he will dump a WIDE range of hands here. Its not a "weak set-mine" like you put it, Mercury.Also, with his perceived image, it DOES present a decent squeeze spot for an aggro opponent behind and that should definitely be included in the thought process behind raising or flatting PF.I think you are right about his betsizing. He probably doesn't put you on AK so he can easily try and rep AK. I mean he never is going to have KJ here because what is he shoving for that is going to get called by a weak-tight player that he beats? You have 2 Q blockers. I can find a case for a call here.

Excellent perspective and a good illustration of how important table dynamics and person-specific reads are. The point about the two blockers is spot on, esp as I was thinking villain might be holding JT (rly!). There's no question repping a K with a strong unmade drawing hand is a possibility here.

[cdipierr 0]

JT isn't in the guy's perceived range which in the setup was:"Villain was an older guy (probably in his 50's) wearing a fairly worn Poker Stars polo, who seemed like a very solid player."No way that type of read opens JT for 1k with 15k left UTG.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

Solid players open up hands like that UTG. Just because he is old doesn't mean NITTY...Solid doesn't mean nitty either.If you open a SC hand like JT UTG...many people will put you on a tighter range so it draws a lot of folds from marginal hands like KT or QJ...and if you are 3bet by someone, you can assume their holdings are fairly strong since they are 3betting a UTG raise.

[Tehtoe 3]

lol jesus christ, you all need to get off the information shit (mercury!) This is a fine 3bet/call pre, but as played i actually quite like call/call post.

[babylondonks 5]

hooders gonna hood

[Mercury69 3]

lol jesus christ, you all need to get off the information shit (mercury!) This is a fine 3bet/call pre, but as played i actually quite like call/call post.

OK...I think I overanalyze sometimes...

[Tehtoe 3]

Yeah, I mean it's silly to say by folding pre we save 1k without realizing it. You know that's ridiculously results-oriented and absurd. If we're 3betting, it's going to be for value and not to "find out" if he has a king, because raising for information is bad and there's also no way that the 3bet is gonna help you soul read him for a king or whatever post.The more I've thought about this hand after waking up the more I like Adam's line. People are wayyy nittier live and flatting pre is going to be more profitable because I doubt this guy is gonna jam worse often enough over a 3bet with dynamics the way they're described.

[Mercury69 3]

I wish I could play live more often...

[TrueAce13 18]

peaches!!!!!

[Mercury69 3]

peaches!!!!!

Equally worthy is the shaved version: NECTARINES!